| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14] > | Please remove ChatGPT option from KudoZ (Staff: removed) Thread poster: ibz
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| Let's have that meeting | Oct 27, 2023 |
We have free video conferencing these days, folks -- so instead of going around in circles on this, why don't we just have a meeting on the topic?
As I've said, I don't see a problem offering askers the option of receiving answers from ChatGPT, when they feel like it. However, some of you seem to feel strongly that this option should not be given. Would someone like to act as spokesperson for that position? I'll set up a Zoom call for next week, and let's hash it out, shall we?
... See more We have free video conferencing these days, folks -- so instead of going around in circles on this, why don't we just have a meeting on the topic?
As I've said, I don't see a problem offering askers the option of receiving answers from ChatGPT, when they feel like it. However, some of you seem to feel strongly that this option should not be given. Would someone like to act as spokesperson for that position? I'll set up a Zoom call for next week, and let's hash it out, shall we?
Alternatively, I think it would be interesting to have an exchange on how we should treat AI technology, as translators, more generally.
For example, my response to the question, "What should we do about AI technology?", would be: "Use it to our benefit."
(Would it be wrong for me to think that the position of some here would be things like "Hide it", "Ignore it", "Criticize it"? If you think that ProZ must not enable askers to receive answers from ChatGPT, I would be interested to understand the distinction between your position and those.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Google Meet scheduled for next Tuesday | Oct 27, 2023 |
Hi folks. I put a Google Meet on the calendar for next Tuesday at noon New York time (4pm GMT). Please let me know if you would like to be included in that call. Zea? Philip? express? Ice? ibz? Texjax? Tom? Please come and state your case for why the option must be removed... and I'll tell you anything you want to know about how we think AI is a tool and we want to help our members make use of it to their advantage.
I promise I'll be listening. Hopefully that will be mutual. Who kno... See more Hi folks. I put a Google Meet on the calendar for next Tuesday at noon New York time (4pm GMT). Please let me know if you would like to be included in that call. Zea? Philip? express? Ice? ibz? Texjax? Tom? Please come and state your case for why the option must be removed... and I'll tell you anything you want to know about how we think AI is a tool and we want to help our members make use of it to their advantage.
I promise I'll be listening. Hopefully that will be mutual. Who knows, maybe we'll even learn something from each other... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Reminder - from my point of view, the main issue was addressed in the first page of this thread | Oct 27, 2023 |
Samuel, you wrote:
«However, some of the disagrees do relate to the answer, and I believe those responses are actually quite useful to particularly new translators, to show them *why* an obvious answer is not the correct answer.»
Do you really think that this is the reason behind this feature?
Yes, that is basically the point, to bring in the AI input, when askers opt to include it, and out of the interaction maybe there is a benefit. So when you argue against allowing askers the option, this is what you are arguing against.
(By the way, it actually isn't a very big deal, someone might say.)
| | | | Zea_Mays 
Italy
Local time: 20:28
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Honestly, do you find the bot is doing a good job in KudoZ?
If yes, in what way?
AI can be helpful in some cases, but using it like in the KudoZ section hurts both translators and AI.
But do you know what my newest suspicion is? Proz is actually boycotting AI that way showing how stupid it is! 
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Henry wrote:
Google Meet scheduled for next Tuesday
I put a Google Meet on the calendar for next Wednesday at noon New York time (4pm GMT).
So, which is it?
Tricks on Tuesday? - Or treats on Wednesday?
| | | | | Thanks, Jennifer | Oct 27, 2023 |
Jennifer Levey wrote: Henry wrote:
Google Meet scheduled for next Tuesday
I put a Google Meet on the calendar for next Wednesday at noon New York time (4pm GMT).
So, which is it? Tricks on Tuesday? - Or treats on Wednesday?
Oops, thanks! Tuesday!
| | | | | No burnishing | Oct 27, 2023 |
Zea_Mays wrote: Honestly, do you find the bot is doing a good job in KudoZ? If yes, in what way? AI can be helpful in some cases, but using it like in the KudoZ section hurts both translators and AI. But do you know what my newest suspicion is? Proz is actually boycotting AI that way showing how stupid it is!
It is what it is!
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Zea_Mays wrote: ... Proz is actually boycotting AI that way showing how stupid it is!
Actually, I reckon it's worse than that!
ChatGPT has been 'plugged into' into the Kudoz Q/A flow via a Proz-built algorithm that attempts to interpret the Asker's very often very poorly presented question, and then generates a set of three AI prompts (translation of the term, explanation and confidence level). On this basis alone, the poor bot is expected to generate a valid response at the very first attempt.
There is some evidence in this thread to the effect that ChatGPT is capable of delivering better answers when used directly by an Asker, than it does when going via the Proz/Kudoz interface.
The bot is being exposed to scorn and ridicule from knowledgeable human translators almost every time it delivers an answer. But a major contributor to its miserable performance is not the bot's fault at all! It's the Proz algorithm that's failing to interpret the question in a way that the bot can get a meaningful grip on it.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we human translators mitigate the problems of poorly-presented questions through dialogue with the asker and other potential answerers. It's a process of 'successive approximation' - a process from which ChatGPT can often derive benefit when consulted directly, but is inaccessible to the bot in the Kudoz work-flow.
So, it's not just that Proz is actually boycotting AI that way showing how stupid it is! - Proz is systematically undermining the bot's ability to show its strengths (if any...), first by feeding it adulterated question data and then depriving it of the opportunity to refine its answers on the basis of any interaction with the human contributors.
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| On circles, and squaring them | Oct 28, 2023 |
Henry Dotterer wrote:
We have free video conferencing these days, folks -- so instead of going around in circles on this, why don't we just have a meeting on the topic?
Nobody has been going around in circles. On the contrary, a large number of people have posted closely reasoned arguments that have formed the basis of an ongoing and productive discussion. After nine pages, a clear consensus was reached. As Chris (Ice Scream) put it:
There seems little point in spending time on a big debate when I have not seen a single person say they like the feature. Not one.
I think our position is clear.
Indeed it is.
Henry Dotterer also wrote:
As I've said, I don't see a problem offering askers the option of receiving answers from ChatGPT, when they feel like it. However, some of you seem to feel strongly that this option should not be given. Would someone like to act as spokesperson for that position?
I doubt it very much, because as far as I'm aware, nobody here supports that position. Henry's argument is a classic straw man.
Nobody wants to stop translators using ChatGPT "when they feel like it". The issue is whether this beta-version chatbot should be accorded equal status with human translators on KudoZ. I feel very strongly that this is demeaning and wrong, and I have already acted as a spokesperson for that position.
Alternatively, I think it would be interesting to have an exchange on how we should treat AI technology, as translators, more generally.
For example, my response to the question, "What should we do about AI technology?", would be: "Use it to our benefit."
(Would it be wrong for me to think that the position of some here would be things like "Hide it", "Ignore it", "Criticize it"? If you think that ProZ must not enable askers to receive answers from ChatGPT, I would be interested to understand the distinction between your position and those.)
Criticise it? Yes, of course - when appropriate. But the rest of your evaluation is completely wrong. This is just another straw man argument.
(As a side note, it's a good thing this discussion thread hadn't been changed to "Restricted"* format, or Henry wouldn't have been able to make the five posts required to get his message across. You see, Henry, sometimes one post, or even two, just aren't enough.
*I know this is called something else in ProZian, but I'm speaking Plain English.)
Back to business. When Lucia announced this new "feature" on August 16, she provided a link to the ProZ FAQ, which among other things asks the following question:
If AI technology is available out there and language professionals are using it (in many different ways), why not include it in KudoZ and enable them to realize their full potential?
There are obviously many possible answers to this, but what grated with me was that bit about "realize their full potential", which implies that a translator would find it difficult or impossible to realise their full potential otherwise. As a translator for more than thirty years, I find this insulting, as I realised my full potential long before ChatGPT came on to the scene. Is this really the official ProZ position, Henry?
However, rather than reopen old wounds, let me make what I hope is a constructive suggestion. Let's turn the clock back to August and let's imagine that when announcing the change, Lucia had said something along these lines:
"In this way we will be investigating the possible value of Large Language Model AIs like ChatGPT in providing on-line assistance to translators through the ProZ website. This is a pilot project that will run for ten weeks, at the end of which we will conduct an evaluation and the project will be extended, modified or cancelled, depending on the evidence."
Let us now, ten weeks later, consider the evidence we have seen. Based on that evidence, I think it is clear that:
1. ChatGPT's performance as a KudoZ answerer has been dismally bad, and
2. the response from the ProZ translator community has been overwhelmingly negative.
Therefore, we may now expect an announcement that this pilot project (albeit retrospectively defined as such) will now be cancelled, on sound scientific principles and without any ill-feeling on either side, and the participation of ChatGPT in Kudoz will be terminated immediately.
All in favour?
| | | | ibz
Local time: 20:28
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Philip's post | Oct 28, 2023 |
My thoughts exactly, I've nothing to add.
| | | | | Not to be boring... | Oct 28, 2023 |
but just over 60 members are against the ChatGPT option, as per this thread. As of 20 October 2018, ProZ.com reports more than 960,000 registered users.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProZ.com
I make that 0.0069%.
| | | | ibz
Local time: 20:28
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Your statistics are lame. You assume that all those who say nothing are in favour. A bit daring.
Still waiting for someone who says to want this feature. No one has done so in this thread if I’m right (apart from ProZ and maybe you?). And no thread has been started in defense of ChatGPT on KudoZ.
Please also read the comments to ChatGPT‘s answers given by many more members to get an idea of their opinion.
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| My point was... | Oct 28, 2023 |
...that a very small minority of members want the option removed. Maybe ProZ.com could suggest a poll. I don't particularly like it (the option), but if some people want to use it, I'm not going take that liberty from them. This Chatty thing is turning into a crusade... 
ibz wrote:
Your statistics are lame.
| | | | | Supplementary points | Oct 29, 2023 |
Let me add a couple more supplementary points and questions:
- As I have previously reported, ChatGPT itself rejected the idea of participating as a member of ProZ. In answer to my query it said:
The information you mentioned about my registration and membership on ProZ.com is not accurate.
- As part of the same conversation quoted in the above link, ChatGPT told me:
It's important for users to critically assess the information I provide and cross-reference it when necessary, especially for critical or sensitive tasks like professional translation.
While I can offer assistance and insights, it's always a good practice for human professionals to verify and validate any information or translation suggestions I provide, particularly in professional settings where accuracy is crucial.
Why are these important reservations not included in ChatGPT's profile?
- In contrast, ChatGPT's profile claims that:
Whether you're puzzled by idiomatic expressions, struggling with technical jargon, or seeking clarity in complex passages, I'm here to help bridge the linguistic gaps.
My knowledge spans a wide array of subjects, from technical fields like legal, medical, and engineering to creative domains like literature, culture, and arts. Whether you're translating a legal contract, a medical report, a marketing campaign, or a literary masterpiece, I'm equipped to assist you in finding the right term and conveying the intended message accurately.
Where did ProZ get this description from and why is it at such odds with ChatGPT's own assessment of its abilities?
Summing up: we don't want ChatGPT on Kudoz and ChatGPT doesn't want to be there. Is there anybody who does want ChatGPT to be on KudoZ, apart from Henry?
Speak up now, please. Don't be afraid. I would really like to know, and I'm sure others would, too.
And if ChatGPT is going to continue misleading KudoZ answerers in the teeth of all this opposition, can we at least give it a truthful profile that reflects its actual abilities and limitations, as acknowledged by the bot itself?
[Edited to remove incorrect information]
[Edited at 2023-10-29 06:48 GMT]
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 20:28
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| @Giovanni: KudoZ, not entire platform | Oct 29, 2023 |
Look at how many of the users do use the KudoZ section, not the number of registered users (which actually says nothing as most of them are probably not actively using the platform). And as someone else already said, look what actual KudoZ users say to the bot's output.
Let me quote Philip Lees regarding an optimal procedure:
Philip Lees wrote:
However, rather than reopen old wounds, let me make what I hope is a constructive suggestion. Let's turn the clock back to August and let's imagine that when announcing the change, Lucia had said something along these lines:
"In this way we will be investigating the possible value of Large Language Model AIs like ChatGPT in providing on-line assistance to translators through the ProZ website. This is a pilot project that will run for ten weeks, at the end of which we will conduct an evaluation and the project will be extended, modified or cancelled, depending on the evidence."
Let us now, ten weeks later, consider the evidence we have seen. Based on that evidence, I think it is clear that:
1. ChatGPT's performance as a KudoZ answerer has been dismally bad, and
2. the response from the ProZ translator community has been overwhelmingly negative.
Therefore, we may now expect an announcement that this pilot project (albeit retrospectively defined as such) will now be cancelled, on sound scientific principles and without any ill-feeling on either side, and the participation of ChatGPT in Kudoz will be terminated immediately.
All in favour?
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