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Inmovilizados

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

despido improcedente

English translation:

termination without cause

Added to glossary by Justin Peterson
Nov 6, 2019 13:25
4 yrs ago
16 viewers *
Spanish term

despido improcedente

Spanish to English Other Human Resources Labor Law
This is really fascinating

The only translation (and it abounds) I can find for despido improcedente is "wrongful dismissal"

However, in the context in question, the company is not really guilty of anything. They are firing due to a strategic decision. The idea behind improcedente, really, is that the employee is not at fault ... but this does not mean that the company IS. I doubt they are violating their contract by firing their employees. This would imply a moral, and legal, obligation to employ them forever (an admittedly common dream of many Spaniards...)

In any case ... is there a better translation?

In law, wrongful dismissal, also called wrongful termination or wrongful discharge, is a situation in which an employee's contract of employment has been terminated by the employer, where the termination breaches one or more terms of the contract of employment, or a statute provision or rule in employment law
Proposed translations (English)
3 termination without cause
5 +3 Unfair dismissal
5 +1 Wrongful termination or dismissal
3 +2 lay off
4 inappropriate termination/dismissal
3 objective dismissal
3 unfair dismissal
2 unfounded dismissal

Discussion

David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I like to help if I can and enjoy keeping in on the the translation front so good luck with the final result :)
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
no need and I know the pressure of getting it right and meeting deadlines etc. so np
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
I do apologise... (with an s!) I need to count to 10 at times ... before jumping the gun / Most of my clients want UK English, so we are exact opposites in that regard: a Brit learning American, an American learning British
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
and give Phil a break as he is solid and always gives his best shot
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I worked for the IMF and they insisted on US-English so you get used to it
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I like your approach to interacting Justin and UK and US English 2 worlds (and I've lived in both)
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Two peoples divided.... by a common language :) (Churchill)
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
that's from cricket UK
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
shalom and hope you find the right way to go here
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
David: I learn new British English every day off my own bat? I like it. Strange that we don't have that in the US, despite all the baseball bats. Is that from cricket?
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
and I think you are in a position to decide off your own bat
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
I come in peace... not to quarrel with anyone. I found Phil's response snide. But, perhaps my reaction was a bit excessive. I apologise. I don't want to quarrel with colleagues on here.
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I think you're being unfair on Phil as he's an established and competent translator with a sound record of providing good options on multiple occasions
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
So, the Spanish encompasses 2 different concepts: wrongful dismissal (negligence or wrongdoing by the employer) and just bad luck for the worker ... no wonder it is so confusing!
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
That's a big "o" (or): This is a reference, not the document to be translated) : Despido improcedente: Aquel en que el empresario no demuestra el incumplimiento laboral o (!) el despido no cumple los requisitos formales. Ante esta situación el empresario tiene la opción de readmitir al trabajador o pagar una indemnización de 45 días de salario por año trabajado, hasta un máximo de 42 mensualidades
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
PATINBA: The plot thickens I thought "without cause" was perfect, and still think it works, but for some reason there are quite a few references specifically to Spain, citing "objective dismissal". The situation does, in fact, correspond to this, as neither the employee or employer are being accused of wrongdoing (!) Thus, it would seem both options are valid, in English, though they are different in Spanish (objetivo vs. improcedente) Oh my ... truly complex, this one.
philgoddard Nov 6, 2019:
Three of us asked you for context, and you eventually provided it. Thank you.
Daniel Coria Nov 6, 2019:
Termination of employment relationship in Spain The Courts, regardless of the grounds of dismissal stated by the employer, may declare the termination to be either fair, unfair or void. If the dismissal is declared fair, the termination decision is upheld, and no further compensation is payable by the employer.
https://www.cecamagan.com/en/termination-employment-relation...
Adrian MM. Nov 6, 2019:
Asker is after US, UK or 'offshore' ENG categories '...an employee is terminated (discharged, dismissed or laid off?) from a job'.. suggests that the asker is after American English.

Notes:

1. even though lawyers (a Barrister, who had never studied employment/ labo(u)r law, gulp!) teaching on translation courses in London claim unfair & wrongful dismissal are the same, if this is a redundancy scenario, then - on the British Isles - it will be considered 'automatically unfair' and qualify for ENG common law *compensation*. www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/10636750-despido-red...

2. wrongful dismissal is, in the UK, a category usually for breach of contract e.g. a soccer-player hired for two seasons is paid off with *contract damages* if fired after one season.

3. we cannot assume that the American terminology is the same. A US Wake Forest Professor of Law I know (without names-dropping) gave a whole lecture on 'revenge porn' generally without once mentioning a restraining / prohibitive or positive/ mandatory injunction as a 'gagging order' was likely to be 'contrary to the Ist Free-Speech Amendment of the US Constitution'.
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Phil: Please kindly refrain from responding to my questions in the future, as I believe I have asked you before. It seems you come here to complain about the posters, the posts, and to invoke the tired "lack of context" more than anything else. Spare me.
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I think you'll have to decide this on the basis of your ST and your own instincts Justin
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Full Context (not much more to say) Sus contratos de trabajo se extinguirán mediante despido reconocido como improcedente en el CMAC y con fecha de efectos del día 31 de diciembre de 2019
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
This is EXACTLY the situation "Termination without cause occurs when an employee is terminated from a job not because they have necessarily done anything wrong, but because the employer has decided, for whatever reason, that it no longer needs the employee's services"
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
How much more context do you want? "However, in the context in question, the company is not really guilty of anything. They are firing due to a strategic decision."
philgoddard Nov 6, 2019:
I agree with Daniel. "Without cause" is not a correct translation of "improcedente" in my opinion. But it sounds like you've made up your mind and decided not to provide context.
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Nothing inappropriate here... unfortunate, for the worker, but nothing inappropriate or illegal is going on here... the company assumes the obligations entailed by dismissing without cause
Daniel Coria Nov 6, 2019:
"Improcedente" means that the dismissal lacks "procedencia" (legitimacy/propriety/appropiateness/lawfulness, etc.). Even if there is no intentional wrongdoing, something is "wrong" with the basis/grounds for dismissal.

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/bus-financial/...

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish-to-english/law-general/34...
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
I still think "lay off" would work and you don't need an adjective as it's implicit so what do you all think?
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Christopher Peterson has got it! "without cause" Yes! This expresses that the employee has done nothing wrong, and does not accuse the employer of a crime, or even misconduct.

* This is actually a case of a word that is being mistranslated, I do believe, countless times ... just out of carelessness. "

Wrongful dismissal" implies wrongdoing in English. When a company simply makes a strategic decision to lay off, and accept its legal obligations, this is NOT "wrongful dismissal". It is dismissal without cause.

Without Cause means termination by the Company of Key Employee's employment at the Company's sole discretion for any reason, other than by reason of Key Employee's death or Disability, and other than a termination based upon Cause.
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
Although "constructive dismissal" doesn't really fit in with Justin's statement that the company is not really guilty of anything so a bit of a conundrum as Justin righty points out...
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
We might be onto something here so let's keep going
Andy Watkinson Nov 6, 2019:
"Constructive dismissal" is really when an employee resigns, but only because they company creates such a difficult/hostile working environment they have little choice. (constant reassigning to different posts, transfer to remote work centre, etc...) and, as such, would always be classed as "despido improcedente".
David Hollywood Nov 6, 2019:
Agree with Andy and throwing in "constructive dismissal"
Andy Watkinson Nov 6, 2019:
@Justin.

It's essential here we have the full context in which this is used.

"Despido improcedente", wongful/unfair dismissal, always implies wrongdoing on the part of the employer.
It's true that an employee can be fired without them having committed any act that contravenes their contract. Under the last government reform of Spain's labour laws, an employee can be fired even when *justifiably* absent from work for health reasons (except maternity issues) for just 9 days out of two months. But this would be classed as "despido por causas objetivas". "causas económicas, organizativas, técnicas o de producción que afecten directamente a la empresa"
philgoddard Nov 6, 2019:
The company has done something wrong. If they were justified in laying off workers, it probably means that they didn't follow the proper procedures. But could we have several sentences of Spanish context, please - otherwise we're just guessing.
Justin Peterson (asker) Nov 6, 2019:
Not convinced... No, I need the adjective, improcedente; I cannot use lay off
"inappropriate" still suggests that the company is doing something wrong

Proposed translations

1 hr
Selected

termination without cause

If I'm understanding the context correctly, this could work. According to the source I posted, "Termination without cause occurs when an employee is terminated from a job not because they have necessarily done anything wrong, but because the employer has decided, for whatever reason, that it no longer needs the employee’s services."
Reference:

https://lmlaw.ca/2018/01/wrongful-dismissal-vs-termination-without-cause/

Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Yes, and I think this makes a KEY CONTRIBUTION to the Glossary. "
12 mins

inappropriate termination/dismissal

"Improcedente" also means "inadmissible" (whether legally or morally so).

If "wrongful" adds an unnecessary componential element, perhaps "inappropriate" can shift the focus to that moral/legal obligation from the employee's perspective.

https://lawrato.com/labour-service-legal-advice/inappropriat...

https://hmclawyers.com/employment/employer-learns-expensive-...


Inappropriate Termination Basics: What You Should Know
Sometimes, arguments in the offices outcome in an personnel becoming the focus on of wrongful termination. Although most people are aware of the ...
https://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/inappropriate-terminatio...

If an employer is not on solid legal ground, then the potential consequences of an inappropriate dismissal can increase phenomenally.
https://www.hrzone.com/community/blogs/jude-fletcher/avoidin...

Hope it helps!
Note from asker:
No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
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+1
30 mins

Wrongful termination or dismissal

I think dismissal or termination are fine, but I would say 'wrongful' rather than inappropriate.

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Note added at 33 mins (2019-11-06 13:59:43 GMT)
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Maybe "unfair dismissal" is the term you're looking for?
https://www.monster.co.uk/career-advice/article/what-is-unfa...
Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_dismissal

Note from asker:
No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Based on what Justin says, it's not unfair, but there's still something wrong with it.
15 mins
Something went wrong...
+2
9 mins

lay off

I would suggest

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Note added at 10 mins (2019-11-06 13:36:04 GMT)
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an occasion when a company stops employing someone, sometimes temporarily, because the company does not have enough money or enough work

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Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-06 13:37:05 GMT)
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no guilt involved on either side

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Note added at 11 mins (2019-11-06 13:37:36 GMT)
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just a result of circumstances

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Note added at 22 mins (2019-11-06 13:48:32 GMT)
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and this gets you out of the jam :)

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Note added at 46 mins (2019-11-06 14:12:42 GMT)
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how about "constructive dismissal"?

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Note added at 48 mins (2019-11-06 14:14:29 GMT)
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Definition: Constructive dismissal is a situation where the employee is forced to leave or quit his/her job not because they want to, but because of the employer’s conduct. The resignation could be the result of bad working conditions or changes in terms of employment which leaves the employee with no other choice but to quit.

Description: Constructive dismissal is very common in organisations. As such, most employees usually leave their boss and not the organisation. This could be because they don’t like the behaviour of the employer, were bullied at work, harassed, there was violence against you or the employers made you work in dangerous conditions.

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Note added at 50 mins (2019-11-06 14:16:16 GMT)
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maybe this fits in with your overall context ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Joannes Groenewege : This is how to best translate "despido improcedente". It is a term frequently used in the US of A, where employees can be fired from one instance to another!
1 hr
dank ye wel Joannes and having read your profile I think we are kindred spirits Used to live in the US and I hear you
agree Andrea Sacchi
3 hrs
muchas gracias Andrea
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+3
51 mins

Unfair dismissal

As we say in the UK
Note from asker:
No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : Yes IMO for BrE/ IrE consumption (but asker is US Am.). 'Every redundancy will be considered automatically unfair' so qualify for ENG Common Law *compensation* vs.*contract* damages for WD www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/10636750-despido-red...
44 mins
Maybe workers have no rights in the US not the same as UK law
agree neilmac : Classic - first thing I thought of... :)
2 hrs
Thank you Neil
agree Paola Pantaleon : For me this is the most accurate translation
3 hrs
Thank you Paola, that is the legal terminology.
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2 hrs

unfounded dismissal

Example sentence:

Furthermore, an appeal against unfounded summary dismissal only succeeds if the unfounded dismissal is based on an unlawful motive

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2 hrs

objective dismissal

Not exactly a translation, but it may be the term you are looking for.

An objective dismissal is termination based on any of the objective grounds such as, economic, technical, productive or organizational reasons. ... The employer must provide a minimum notice period of 15 days, from the date of issue and delivery of termination letter to the effective date of termination.Jun 25, 2018
Termination of employment relationship in Spain - Despacho ...
https://www.cecamagan.com › termination-employment-relationship-spain

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Note added at 2 hrs (2019-11-06 16:17:06 GMT)
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From a Baker & McKenzie Report on Spain

15.2.3 Objective dismissals
“Objective” dismissals are dismissals that do not have to do with the employee’s (“subjective”) misconduct and that are instead based on one or more of the following objective reasons:
....

• company requirement to phase out job positions based on organizational, productive,economic or technical grounds.

With respect to the last item, under amendments passed in February 2012, economic causes will exist when the company has a negative economic situation, in cases such as current or foreseen losses or the persistent decrease in ordinary income or sales. The new law specifies that, in any case, there will
be a persistent decrease when ordinary income or total sales in three consecutive quarters is less than the ordinary income or sales in the same period of the previous year. Organization causes will exist, among other cases, where there are changes to the system and methods of employees’ work or
in the way production is organized; technical changes exist where, among other cases, there are changes in the means or instruments of production; and productive reasons exist when, among other cases, there are changes in the demands of the products or services that the company has in the
market. This last type of objective dismissal may only be used when the number of employees to be dismissed does not exceed a particular number; if the employees to be dismissed for these reasons exceed the maximum number, the procedure for collective dismissals needs to be followed (see further at 15.10).
Note from asker:
This is a valid and valuable option. But I can't figure out how to assign points to both replies :/
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

unfair dismissal

I believe either unfair dismissal or unfounded dismissal could show that the worker is not at fault and that the employer is not breaching contract either.

There's actually an example using despido improcedente diplayed when you search in Wordmagic App
Note from asker:
No. In this case this was not the idea, but thanks for your input
Something went wrong...
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