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consultorios de demanda espontánea
ráfaga
Oct 30, 2018 15:52
5 yrs ago
61 viewers *
Spanish term

indicado

Spanish to English Medical Medical (general)
This comes from a letter to the Editor reporting a cardiology study. The surrounding context is "La figura 2 presenta los CVAR (coefficient of variation) para SCASEST (non-ST elevation acute coronary syndrome):░> 100% en el uso de coronariografía durante el ingreso (figura 2A), ICP **indicada** durante la hospitalización e ... "
The study is describing the differences between hospitals for treatment for acute coronary syndrome. Here they are reporting on which procedures/treatments were found to vary excessively between hospitals.
My doubt is about whether "indicada" is used to mean "performed", which I have not come across before. I know it can mean "prescribed", though that doesn´t really fit here. Has anyone seen this before? The authors are from Spain.
Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 indicated
5 ordered
4 performed

Discussion

Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Nov 14, 2018:
Just as a follow-up, I weasled out of having to choose a word for my translation by just saying "PCI during hospital stay" without specifying indicated vs ordered vs performed (the implication from the context being that this was the actually done to the patients). Although for medications I would be happy using, say "20 patients were prescribed beta-blockers" to imply that they were taking them, I wasn´t happy using this wording for an intervention.
Chema Nieto Castañón Nov 1, 2018:
I see your point, Anne. As suggested in my answer I think that "indicated" would probably be misleading here as one would read the English version not as NSTEMI patients who actually underwent PCI but as NSTEMI patients where PCI would have been appropriate/necessary (PCI was indicated; it would be alright if you could read it as PCI was actually needed, implying it was performed).

Anyhow, the context should help dilucidate what is actually meant; I cannot help reading the original as performed [tratamiento instaurado] but as said, although I feel confident about performed -or equivalent; i.e. patients who underwent PCI- as from the little context provided, it might well refer to something else, i.e. (the percentage of) NSTEMI patients where a PCI was actually ordered [Charles]... or where PCI was actually necessary [liz] -as per clinical guide. My own feeling is that context and author feedback seem to confirm (indirectly) the first option as valid; performed -or whatever expression that conveys the idea of actually having undergone a PCI.

Just an opinion anyhow; I might be well stretching it as liz puts it ;)
Robert Carter Nov 1, 2018:
@Anne No, sorry, Anne, it was just a general linguistics point I wanted to make, but it coincided with your entry!
Anne Schulz Nov 1, 2018:
@Robert If this was the answer to my entry, I was obviously unclear. I rather tried to make the point why "performed" may not be the best choice in this case :-))
Robert Carter Nov 1, 2018:
In short, if we look at this as a natural development of language, I can't see any problem in interpreting this as "performed", which is obviously how the word is being used. It happens all the time in other fields, it's just perhaps a little unnerving in the context of a scientific paper, where we expect authors to be much more precise.
Anne Schulz Nov 1, 2018:
Jane, to be honest, I do not quite understand this incomplete sentence you are inquiring about (maybe due to my incomplete command of the Spanish language). I read, "Figure 2 shows the CVs for NST-ACI: ░> 100% [??] when performing coronary angiography upon hospital admission (Fig. 2A), PCI *indicado* during the hospitalization and..." The remainder of the sentence (or even more context) could possibly help to resolve this eager discussion about "indicate" vs "order" vs. "perform".<br /><br />That said, I would like to back up on what Chema pointed out: indicar can have the meaning "to declare something to be indicated (warranted/necessary)" – the same holds for "indicate", AFAIK, although it is quite infrequently used in that sense.<br /> In the context of analysing differences in the use of procedures between hospitals, this is a relevant aspect. If a hospital performs lots of PCIs, but 95% of patients have been referred for the purpose of having a PCI, then it is not necessarily the hospital's policy to do a PCI in such cases; they may just be the ones who have the expertise. If, however, the indication is made in this hospital in 95% of the cases, then it is obv. their policy.
Chema Nieto Castañón Nov 1, 2018:
A modo de resumen y como aporte adicional a la respuesta del cliente, concuerdo con TODAS Y CADA UNA de las definiciones planteadas aquí por Charles (apropiadísimas y en absoluto pedantes, por cierto). Y estoy básicamente de acuerdo con las reticencias expresadas por Charles y Robert Carter. De hecho, aunque el sentido de *indicado* en este caso me parece aludir de manera inequívoca a (tratamiento) administrado/instaurado/realizado (tanto así como para plantear performed como traducción en este caso), creo que el uso de *indicado* con este sentido en castellano [o el de *prescrito* para el caso] es, definitivamente, un error, y que lo que pretende decirse en realidad (en estos casos particulares) es (tratamiento/procedimiento terapéutico) instaurado. La lectura del propio autor como prescrito no cambia en realidad el sentido en que este prescrito es utilizado en este caso en particular, en tanto que tratamiento instaurado / aplicado / realizado. Por supuesto, seguro que hay distintas opciones en inglés que trasladarían un sentido equivalente al planteado; performed es sólo una opción que parece natural en el contexto dado.

En fin, lo dicho; por si sirve.
Saludos varios ;)
Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Nov 1, 2018:
Thanks again everyone for engaging so much. And for not pulling me up on my ironic mis-spelling of precisely :)
I asked the author, and they gave the not very satisfying answer of a word in English, rather than explaining in Spanish. They said, "Efectivamente en este caso “indicada” el concepto sería equivalente a “prescribed”. Grrr
I was thinking about it more, and I think that what I would say in spoken English would be something like "they were sent for PCI" rather than "it was prescribed". I feel this conveys the same ambiguity as the original, ie why not just say they received it?! But I think the register is a bit low for a journal article. I will let my subconscious process it over the weekend and see if I can find a solution that works.
Chema Nieto Castañón Nov 1, 2018:
2/2 (...) No como elemento deducido -si se ha indicado/prescrito un tratamiento debe haber sido también administrado-, sino como significante fundamental de la expresión original -y ¡que me aspen si soy capaz de explicar por qué!
Se instauró tratamiento analgésico o sedación en muy pocos casos durante el proceso de muerte [los médicos instauraron / administraron / administraron de hecho / consideraron necesaria la administración de analgesia o sedación...]


Tal vez más claro aún, en el mismo texto y con el mismo sentido:
Como se ve en la figura 1, tanto la analgesia mayor como la sedación fue más indicada en los pacientes tumorales que en los no tumorales p < 0,05. (...)
Figura 1. Tratamiento con analgesia y sedación según patología [tumoral o no tumoral]

De nuevo, el sentido de *indicado* en este caso es más cercano a (tratamiento) *aplicado / administrado / instaurado* [treated with] que a estrictamente *prescrito* [ordered] -o al sentido también imbricado de (tratamiento)*recomendado, adecuado* [indicated]; tanto la analgesia mayor como la sedación fueron instauradas de manera predominante en caso de patología tumoral
Chema Nieto Castañón Nov 1, 2018:
1/2 Fascinante debate.
Un placer leeros. Y es verdad que "performed" es difícil de justificar desde cualquier perspectiva.
*Indicar* alude a señalar, sugerir, recomendar, pej. un tratamiento. Y *tratamiento indicado* puede referirse, en función del contexto, a tratamiento adecuado según evidencia; a tratamiento recomendado por guía clínica o protocolo interno; a tratamiento prescrito por personal médico; o bien a un tratamiento señalado, anotado, planteado. ¿Pero "realizado" (instaurado, administrado, tomado, recibido...)?

En cuanto a los tratamientos administrados en urgencias quisimos detenernos en el uso de medicación paliativa dadas las características de enfermedad terminal y muerte inevitable que presentaban gran parte de nuestros pacientes. Vemos que en muy pocos fue indicada analgesia mayor y sedación en su proceso de muerte.
http://scielo.isciii.es/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0...

en muy pocos casos se prescribió analgesia o sedación podría funcionar como lectura ajustada. Y sin embargo, el matiz relevante de sentido es la administración efectiva de analgesia o sedación. No como elemento deducido (...)
Charles Davis Nov 1, 2018:
However, let me try again to convince you that I am not twisting the evidence but trying to resolve an ambiguity, which is precisely what led to the question being asked in the first place. The crux of the question is (a) what does "indicada" mean here, and (b) how it should be translated. Look at these two examples:

(1) "Los pacientes cuya intervención fue indicada por la estenosis aórtica tenían una media de fracción de eyección de 49,7% [...]"
http://www.revcardiologia.sld.cu/index.php/revcardiologia/ar...

(2) "Tampoco la intervención fue indicada por el facultativo especialista responsable."
https://www.adnsagardoy.com/_layouts/15/SAG_CustomPages/VerD...

I suggest to you that in these two "fue indicada por" has two different meanings. In (1) it means "motivated by" or "required because of", or words to that effect, and "indicada" could be properly translated as "indicated", whereas in (2) it means "ordered by" and "indicated" would not be a correct translation.

The idea is that in the text we're looking at, it could be either, in theory, but it's much more likely to be the latter.
Charles Davis Nov 1, 2018:
I don't understand the point of that last reference at all.

Look, if by "going round in circles" you mean repeating points that had already been made, then yes, you're right. I really don't see what more I can do. But I don't "need to" provide anything. It's really not my problem. I have no stake in this debate at all.
liz askew Nov 1, 2018:
The original text here doesn't say "por orden médica" as you quoted in your example below, Charles

tiene que descansar después de comer por indicación médica

So I think you are twisting the evidence rather than presenting proper evidence. FWIW.
liz askew Nov 1, 2018:
here's another example:
Angioplastia coronaria y stents - TuOtroMedico
https://www.tuotromedico.com › ... › Angioplastia coronaria y stents
Translate this page
La angioplastia coronaria transluminal percutánea (ACTP) es una técnica indicada en la revascularización de las arterias coronarias (las que rodean y nutren al ... Al final de la intervención se repite la angiografía (el estudio radiográfico del ...
Charles Davis Nov 1, 2018:
@Liz I have. I'm sorry you're not convinced, but so be it.
liz askew Nov 1, 2018:
@Charles
I just think you are going round in circles. You need to provide proper evidence and examples of your reasoning. You haven't convinced me at all I'm afraid.

The bottom line is we should consult the author on this one and ask them what they mean!! Not assume we know what they meant.
My contribution is based on my own research and evidence.
Charles Davis Nov 1, 2018:
DLE (DRAE) as a medical dictionary While I think it's always a good idea to consult the DLE (formerly DRAE) — and in this case, as Robert has reminded us, it gives a medical meaning of indicar ("recetar remedios") which I think is the relevant one here and for which "indicate" would not be correct in English (in my view) — it's not a specialised medical dictionary and I think it's unreasonable to expect that medical terminology will be comprehensively covered in it. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of its three definitions of indicar really accounts for what all of seem to agree is a prime medical use of indicar and one where it does correspond to English "indicate": when we say that a treatment "está indicado" (is "indicated": advisable or appropriate). If you didn't know what "indicado" meant there, the DLE wouldn't really help you to find out, would it?
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
I am most certainly not the leading expert in medical terminology. There are quite a lot of people on this forum who know more about it than I do. However, I am very interested in finding out things I didn't know.
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
indicar
2
(prescribir)
el abogado indicó el procedimiento que había que seguir — the lawyer advised us of / indicated the procedure we had to follow
Más frases de ejemplo
siga las instrucciones que se indican al dorso — follow the instructions given on the back
https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/traducir/espanol-ingles/in...

indicación
NOMBRE FEMENINO
1
(instrucción)
le dio indicaciones de cómo llegar — he gave her directions as to how to get there
Más frases de ejemplo
siguió las indicaciones del prospecto — she followed the instructions on the leaflet
hizo algunas indicaciones sobre la forma de hacerlo — he gave us some indication / a few suggestions as to how to do it
no dio ninguna indicación de sus intenciones — she gave no hint / indication of her intentions
tiene que descansar después de comer por indicación médica — she is under doctor's orders to rest after eating
https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/traducir/espanol-ingles/in...
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
"So, Charles you are now the leading expert in medical terminology?"
No need to be rude, colleague. Charles is simply pointing out that other meanings of "indicada" exist. In any case, it's a linguistic point, not a medical one.

As for the DRAE, well, number 3 reads "recetar remedios", QED, prescribe/order.
Granted, it does nothing to help the argument I support ("performed").
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
So, if you look at DRAE where does it say "performed/ordered"??
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
We cannot make assumptions about what "might" be meant, if a writer uses "indicar" how can it mean "order" or "perform". The examples I have given shows a clear distinction between "indicar" and "realizar".
Now if the writer has written what they mean incorrectly, then are we to assume that we as translators know better and are free to interpret any word whichever way we want?
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
Here's what DRAE says, so how does this support anything Charles has said?

indicar Conjugar el verbo indicar
Del lat. indicāre.

1. tr. Mostrar o significar algo con indicios y señales. Con un gesto le indicó el camino. Su actitud indica desinterés. La marca indica que ha dejado de usarse.

2. tr. Decir algo. Diversas fuentes han indicado que el robo no duró más de cinco minutos.

3. tr. Dicho de un médico: Recetar remedios.
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
@Liz "I can't believe this discussion! So many experts."
And your point is?
For starters, you are clearly ignoring the DRAE definition posted by Charles.
In addition, your references do nothing to help your argument.
Clearly, "indicated" is used in medicine, no one is disputing that.
Perhaps you could take another look at the context first and then explain to us the reason why you believe "indicated" is the correct translation here.
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
So, Charles you are now the leading expert in medical terminology?
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3...
Medical Definition of Indicate. Indicate: In medicine, to make a treatment or procedure advisable because of a particular condition or circumstance.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
@Liz In a nutshell:

realizada = performed: yeees, but...
indicada = indicated: yes and no, in this case very probably no.

"Indicar", as the Real Academia Nacional de Medicina explains, expresses at least three different concepts in medicine.

The arguments have been developed at length and it's not worth repeating them.
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
realizada = performed
indicada = indicated

two separate concepts
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
CPORT-E: Resultados económicos de la intervención coronaria ...
https://secardiologia.es/.../7667-cport-e-resultados-economi...
Translate this page
5 Nov 2012 - Portada · Multimedia · Blog · REC; CPORT-E: Resultados económicos de la intervención coronaria percutánea realizada en centros con y sin ...
liz askew Oct 31, 2018:
I can't believe this discussion! So many experts.
Percutaneous Coronary Intervention. What is PCI? Information | Patient
https://patient.info › Cardiovascular Disease › Professional Articles
Jump to Indications for percutaneous coronary intervention - Note that indications for PCI may change as the procedures continue to be refined, and with ...
Percutaneous coronary intervention - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percutaneous_coronary_interven...
Percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI) is a non-surgical procedure used to treat narrowing ..... "Percutaneous Coronary Intervention (PCI): Practice Essentials, Background, Indications". Medscape. Retrieved 22 January 2017. Jump up ...
Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Oct 31, 2018:
@Charles, I come here precicely for the pedantry!
neilmac Oct 31, 2018:
Too busy ... to get into this debate in such depth; all I can say is that I've read the query text carefully several times, and I still think "indicated" is the best option. I can't remember the name of the figure of speech where one thing actually represents another closely associated with it (metonymy?) but it could be a case of that (i.e., perhaps it was actually ordered/performed, and that is what they meant when they said "indicated").
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
@Jane If it's that sort of client (a rare luxury in my experience, but perhaps I just have the wrong clients), then definitely a good idea to ask. Pending the answer, in the light of what you've just said, I think Chema's suggestion of "performed" is after all the way to go. I have no doubt, personally, that "performed" is the effective meaning; I just found it difficult to swallow linguistically, but I'm no doubt being inordinately pedantic (not for the first time).
Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Oct 31, 2018:
@Liz, yes, the authors are from Spain, I was just asking María Victoria if she was from Argentina, not too important I suppose!
Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Oct 31, 2018:
Wow, thanks everyone for taking the time to discuss this! Yes, to clarify, my doubt is that I want to translate the meaning of what is said into what we would really say in English, and I feel that this would be "performed"/"carried out" etc. but of course I don´t want to add/remove anything from the original, just get the balance right. I am sure that in medical English we sometimes use words that don´t necessarily go by the dictionary definition, although moreso in talking about cases or writing medical notes rather than edited articles for publication, so no reason that couldn´t happen in Spanish. I am going to check with the client, they are usually very helpful with enquiries, and I´ll post back about their response.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
@Robert Ordering a procedure would be relevant, because saying it was ordered, by the responsible doctor, is tantamount to saying it was done. There is normally no suggestion that ordered could mean ordered but not performed, except in an extreme case such as the patient dying between order and performance (which I only mentioned to make the point that they are not strictly synonymous).

Here are the RANM's definitions of "indicar":

"indicar
1 [ingl. to indicate] v. Mostrar, significar o decir algo con indicios y señales.
2 [ingl. to order] v. Solicitar una o más pruebas diagnósticas para aclarar la enfermedad o el trastorno de un paciente.
3 [ingl. to prescribe] v. Prescribir o recetar un medicamento u otro remedio que se consideran adecuados para el tratamiento de un paciente concreto."
https://dtme.ranm.es/buscador.aspx?NIVEL_BUS=3&LEMA_BUS=indi...

Nothing about performing. The meaning here is surely no. 3; no. 2 doesn't apply to an intervention. They use "prescribe" for "un medicamento u otro remedio", but in English we don't use "prescribe" for remedios other than medicamentos (at least I don't think so). However, the meanings are quite clear here, and an PCI is a "remedio".
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
@Charles Come on now, don't sit on the fence ;-)
But, seriously, look at the text here:
"La figura 2 presenta los CVAR (coefficient of variation) para SCASEST (non-ST elevation acute coronary syndrome):░> 100% en el uso de coronariografía durante el ingreso (figura 2A), ICP **indicada** durante la hospitalización e ... "
Now obviously the context is limited, but presumably this is some kind of observational study with a chart showing elevated indices of coronary syndrome that are being correlated with certain procedures that patients underwent.
I'm not even remotely a scientist, but from my layman's perspective, I simply don't see the relevance of ordering a procedure on these indices, i.e., I can't see how ordering but not performing a procedure would affect an outcome.
Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but that's why I say that it can't mean "ordered."
Anyway, perhaps Dr Jane can shed more light on this, and perhaps Chema can give us some better examples, because I agree with you that the examples he provides are unconvincing, hence my neutral comment.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
And à propos of María's comment on Jason's answer, to say that "los tratamientos primero se indican (de acuerdo con el protocolo clínico que proceda)" is using "indicar" in one of its senses, but not (in my view) the relevant one. "Se indican" in that context means "are indicated": according to the relevant clinical protocol, they are appropriate. I really do think that meaning is unlikely to be right here. The nurses who can now "indicar" medications are prescribing them: they are choosing a treatment (and, by implication, administering it) without consulting a doctor. It doesn't mean that what they are prescribing is indicated per protocol. The DLE defines "indicar" as "recetar remedios (dicho de un médico)". The trouble is that this definition is incomplete, because it is not just "recetar" ("prescribir un medicamento" as the DLE defines it) but more broadly "ordenar, mandar hacer". Not "solicitar", though "order" can mean that too.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
@Robert Why doesn't "ordered" fit the context? I honestly don't understand why not. If that was what occurred, that was what occurred. OK, this is not a medical report, but it is presenting evidence derived from medical reports.

Chema says that in his first example, "fue indicado" means "was indicated" (in 26.9% of cases) and "se indicaron" means "was performed" (in 3 cases), but I think he's wrong. They mean exactly the same; the difference is between one form of treatment (anticoagulants) and another (neurosurgery).

He goes on to quote three examples of the "uso habitual equivalente". But he fails to justify the word "equivalente". Of course "performed" is an "uso habitual", but it is not "equivalente", except in so far as procedures ordered are automatically then performed. If someone writing a medical report wishes to say that a procedure was performed, they say "se realizó". If they say "se indicó", they mean that it was ordered.
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
To be clear, I'm not saying that ordered or indicated would not be perfectly good translations in other contexts, just not this one.
In fact, I believe it can't mean "ordered" here, and I presume that was Dr Jane's feeling too.
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
@Charles Actually, that's not the point I'm making. As I said, I agree with all that you said earlier. What I don't agree with is that either you or Dr Jason have correctly assessed the context here. This is not a medical report. It's a text about a study, which is concerned with statistics in this instance. And as Dr. Jane says, it's about procedures that have been carried out. Like you, I have no experience of seeing "indicada" used in this way, but Chema apparently does have experience of this usage. Again, like you, I'd like to see evidence of this usage.
My point is simply that "ordered" doesn't fit the context here either, any more than "indicated" does, whereas "performed" does.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
Jane must speak for herself, but I don't think she's saying that "indicada" means "performed". She can see, as anyone can see, that it fits the context, but is not sure whether it is accurate, which is why she's asking the question. She doesn't think "prescribed" fits the context, and she's right, because you can't "prescribe" a procedure like a PCI. But you can "order" it, and "indicar" can mean either. Jason, a bilingual practising doctor used to reading medical reports in both languages, has no doubt that that's what they're saying.
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
Robert That's not the point. I'm arguing that in principle you translate what it says, not what you think it implies, above all in a scientific context. It doesn't say the procedure was performed, it says it was ordered, and from that you presume it was performed. So that's how you translate it, in my view. Unless, that is, "indicada" can actually mean "performed", but I have yet to see any evidence of that. As far as I can tell, Chema's argument for translating it as "performed" is simply that if it was ordered, it must have been performed, so you might as well translate it like that. I don't think that's legitimate.

It's simply not true that "performed is the only meaning that fits". "Ordered" fits the context perfectly. As a piece of evidence, it has precisely the same weight in English as in Spanish.
Robert Carter Oct 31, 2018:
On the face of it, I would tend to concur with everything you've written here, Charles, but I have to agree with Dr Jane and Chema. From the context, "performed" is the only meaning that fits because the text is solely concerned with procedures. There is no reason to suggest the procedure may have been ordered but not performed. That wouldn't be relevant to the statistics here, would it?
Charles Davis Oct 31, 2018:
There are ways of saying that a procedure was performed but I don't think "indicada" is one of them. Treatments are quite often "indicados" (held to be desirable) but not performed, but it is also possible, though presumably rare, for them to be "indicados" in the sense of ordered, but not performed. Suppose the patient died after a PCI was ordered but before it could be performed. We don't know that this was not the case. It would then have been "indicada" but not "realizada". Just because procedures that are ordered are nearly always, inevitably, performed, I can't see that it is justifiable to conflate the two. I believe that "performed" is inaccurate here, unless Chema or someone else can provide clear evidence that "indicada" can mean that, rather than being a likely implication, which is not enough.
Charles Davis Oct 30, 2018:
I don't think you'd talk about "prescribing" an intervention or procedure; the word would be "order". "Indicar" covers both. In the case of nurses in Spain prescribing medications (where press reports use "indicar" and "recetar" interchangeably), we'd say "prescribe". But "indicar" is not used only for drugs. Here's a sentence from the Spanish medical council's code of ethics:

"El médico no debe indicar exploraciones o tratamientos que no tienen otro sin [typo for "fin"] que su protección. La Medicina defensiva es contraria a la ética médica."
https://www.1decada4.es/_recursos/enlaces_etica/Codigo_de_Et...

You'd translate that as "order", not "indicate", wouldn't you?

In non-medical Spanish, "indicate" is quite often not the right translation for "indicar". It often means "state".
Charles Davis Oct 30, 2018:
That's not to say that it couldn't mean "indicated" here; if it means that during hospitalisation it became evident that an ICP was necessary, then "indicated" could be right. But if it means that someone ordered that an ICP be performed, then I don't think "indicated" would be the right translation, and personally I think that's more likely to be the meaning here, particularly in a letter about what treatments were performed in various hospitals.
Charles Davis Oct 30, 2018:
indicar vs indicate These are not always synonymous. "Indicate", in medical English, is used to express the idea that a treatment or procedure is advisable: treatments can be indicated (or contraindicated) for certain conditions. It can also mean "provide evidence of the presence of": certain signs or symptoms may indicate certain diseases.

"Indicar" can be used in these senses too: you can say that a given treatment "está indicado". But it also means order or prescribe; for example: "Las enfermeras catalanas podrán indicar algunos medicamentos sin requerir autorización del médico." Would we use "indicate" there in English: would we talk about nurses "indicating" medications not authorised by a doctor? I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

I don't think it actually means "administer", and I've have never seen evidence that it can mean "perform".
liz askew Oct 30, 2018:
I thought the authors were from Spain?
Can't see how it can be anything other than "indicated".
Dr Jane Marshall (asker) Oct 30, 2018:
Claro, por eso la duda. Están describiendo los tratamientos de los pacientes, así que por lógica, diría que hablan de lo que hicieron, o "performed" pero nunca lo he visto en este sentido. En cambio, el el RAE, una definición de indicar es "recetar remedios". Para ti, (de Argentina?) no pueden ser sinónimos? Gracias!
María Victoria Ferrer Oct 30, 2018:
Hola! En principio, "performed" y "prescribed" tienen significados diferentes. Habría que definir si la ICP solo se indicó o se llevó a cabo.

Proposed translations

+3
27 mins
Selected

indicated

Percutaneous Coronary Intervention (PCI) - CHI Health
https://www.chihealth.com/en/services/heart/structural-heart...
PCI is most commonly indicated for relief of cardiac symptoms such as chest pain and shortness of breath. It is also performed when patients come through the ...
EuroIntervention Survival after percutaneous coronary intervention for ...
https://www.pcronline.com/eurointervention/.../survival-afte...
2 Jun 2017 - Survival after percutaneous coronary intervention for chronic total ... These findings suggest that CTO PCI, when indicated, should not be ...

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Note added at 32 mins (2018-10-30 16:25:10 GMT)
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Summary of Audit Standards | The British Society for Surgery of the Hand
www.bssh.ac.uk/professionals/summary_of_audit_standards.asp...
When surgery is indicated, the patient is best served by prompt intervention by an appropriately trained surgeon, as delay confers no benefit to the patient's ...


I often use "indicated"

Also, I don't know whether you would prescribe a PCI

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Note added at 1 hr (2018-10-30 17:38:42 GMT)
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Acute coronary syndromes in adults | Guidance and guidelines | NICE
https://www.nice.org.uk/.../quality-statement-4-coronary-ang...
5 Sep 2014 - a) Length of time taken for adults with NSTEMI or unstable angina who are clinically unstable ****(on admission or during their hospital stay) to receive coronary angiography (with follow-on PCI if indicated)***.
Note from asker:
Thanks Liz. I have definitely used "indicated" a lot as well, but in the same sense as in your references, ie, "it should be performed", and I´m just not sure that´s what they mean here. I am going to ask the journal, but I´m curious to hear others´opinions! @Neilmac, when you say "used like this", you mean like the examples Liz has included? Or like my example? Thanks!
Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac : I see "indicated" used like this all the time in med/pharma texts.
7 mins
Thank you!
agree María Patricia Arce
13 mins
Gracias!
agree María Perales : "Indicated" is used all the time - meaning that something is indicated in the relevant hospital protocol. Probably it was subsequently prescribed and performed (following the indication).
30 mins
Gracias! Exactly
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
1 hr

ordered

"Indicar" in a medical report refers to either prescribing a medication or ordering a procedure. In this instance, they are stating that a percutaneous intervention was ordered during the admission.

SaludoZ!
Peer comment(s):
disagree liz askew : Well, I fail to see how you can be so adamant, particularly without any bona fide references in English.
23 mins
agree Charles Davis
6 hrs
agree lorenab23
9 hrs
disagree María Perales : Los tratamientos primero se indican (de acuerdo con el protocolo clínico que proceda), luego se solicitan (order) y después se administran.
13 hrs
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8 hrs

performed

En este caso en particular, y aunque efectivamente "indicada" tiene el sentido general de prescribed/indicated, la alusión a ICP indicada durante el ingreso alude, inevitablemente, a PCI performed during hospitalization.
And yes, it would be quite strange to find any relevant difference between indicated vs. performed here. It is only that, surprisingly enough, a literal translation might be misleading in this case.
Por ejemplo, "indicado durante el ingreso" en el ejemplo que sigue (en alusión a un procedimiento médico) alude inequívocamente a una acción realizada:
neurosurgery was only performed on three patients

El tratamiento antiagregante o anticoagulante
fue indicado durante la hospitalización en
el 29,6 % de los ictus por infarto cerebral y
las técnicas neuroquirúrgicas solo se
indicaron en 3 pacientes con ictus
hemorrágico.
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...

Otros ejemplos de uso habitual equivalente en inglés:

coronary angiography and PCI performed during hospitalization ...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001086501...

Early PCI accounted for 95.6% of all PCI performed during hospitalization.
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(17)3...

Another risk score (...) global registry of acute coronary events (GRACE) score. This score is the composite of nine variables, (...). The variables included (...), and no percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI) performed during hospitalization.
https://doctorlib.info/cardiology/cleveland-clinic-cardiolog...

Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : La traducción literal (ordered) no me parece "misleading", pero estoy seguro de que "indicada" quiere decir que la intervención se llevó a cabo, así que "performed", en la práctica, expresa el sentido. / ¡Ah! Ahora te entiendo. :-) No es "indicated".
21 mins
Vaya, con literal me refería a indicated ;) Ordered es perfecto; es sólo que aquí "indicado" es utilizado de manera digamos "poco convencional", poniendo el acento en la realización del procedimiento antes que en la prescripción. Incluyo nota en Discuss.
agree Robert Carter : I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable about this area to give an authoritative agree, but I agree with you and Dr Jane in that it seems to be the only idea that fits the context here.//Well, you've certainly convinced me, I don't see what else it could mean.
3 hrs
Thanks Robert ;) I'll try to post a better example!
disagree María Perales : Los tratamientos primero se indican (de acuerdo con el protocolo clínico que proceda), luego se solicitan/prescriben y después se administran. Incluso puede haber tratamientos no indicados que finalmente se usen (uso compasivo).
6 hrs
Hola María; tratamiento indicado puede aludir a tratamiento recomendado (según evidencia); a tratamiento prescrito (según orden médica); y... no; tratamiento indicado no es sinónimo de tratamiento administrado ;) Pero en este contexto... -ver Discussion
disagree liz askew : they would have used "realizada". Indicar doesn't mean "to perform".//I think you are really stretching it!!
20 hrs
Yeap; they could have used "adecuada", "recomendada" o "prescrita", con significados distintos... And yes, indicar does not mean to perform. And yet, in this context//Yeap, maybe. And I am sorry; it is just that I have no doubt when I read the Spanish OP!
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