| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | What about a forum for women and mothers? Thread poster: Silvia Barra (X)
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| Thank you Silvia for your suggestion | Jun 4, 2009 |
Thank you Silvia for your suggestion.
When individual forums are posted here in ProZ on the issue of working and child-rearing, they are always very participated. Mostly by women. I wonder why??!!!
Most of these forums are very helpful for those who participate: they offer suggestions, best practices, information on local legislation or support systems. They also offer encouragement to those who feel as if they were the only ones living a difficult moment (because the... See more Thank you Silvia for your suggestion.
When individual forums are posted here in ProZ on the issue of working and child-rearing, they are always very participated. Mostly by women. I wonder why??!!!
Most of these forums are very helpful for those who participate: they offer suggestions, best practices, information on local legislation or support systems. They also offer encouragement to those who feel as if they were the only ones living a difficult moment (because there are difficult moments).
And those who write and contribute to these forums on ProZ are translators, professionals, mostly women, some of the best translators around. Most are full-time freelancers. People without which this profession would make much less sense.
And I have never read any comments within these forums of colleagues (male or female) saying "why are you posting a forum on an issue that I am not interested in, since I don't have children? This is discriminating". Or even "By talking of these silly female issues on this site you are ruining our reputation as professional category. Keep pampers out of this site!"
I think some of our colleagues out there have serious problems of self-esteem, if they feel that these discussions would be enough to hurt their professionalism.
I also add that if some feel that a forum on translators and children/family is a feminist issue and something that concerns women, that would cut men out, maybe the problem is much greater that some of us hoped it was. Maybe the sign that feminism is still a very important movement for making this world a better place to live in.
Comments on why not "amateur farmers, the left-handed, small-holders, dog breeders, stamp collectors, motorcycle maintainers" are probably the clear sign of why many of us (mothers and a few fathers) would feel the need of a place where we could exchange opinions, experiences and suggestions. If some people think that those categories and/or activities are so widespread, time-consuming, difficult and common to all countries, besides being essential for the human species, then there certainly is the need for us to help each other.
And finally, in this profession - as others already wrote before me - the vast majority of translators and interpreters are female. Many of them have children. This is not an issue that concerns a tiny minority of us.
That some people feel so disturbed by the fact that suddenly one of us stands up and says she would be interested in having a specific virtual place where we could discuss our common experiences is really astounding.
Somehow all this sounds very familiar.... horribly familiar.
You are a translator, you also have children. But don't make such a big issue of this.
And please keep private issues out of this place.
You are here to translate.
Don't waste our time with these petty matters.
Above all: what would our clients out there think if they knew that some of my colleagues, instead of working and thinking of work 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, also take their children to school, change their nappies, prepare them food, participate in school activities, read them books, teach them to talk and walk, play with them, nurse them when they are sick? Some are even left-handed, have three cats and a dog, are amateur farmers, collect stamps and coins, collect and maintain motorcycles (maybe a Ducati), and after all this, they also manage to deliver great translations perfectly on time on very specialised topics. Gosh, they also earn much more than I do. And, after all this, they even want to exchange experiences with others? No, too much.
If you want to do all this, at least do it within your four walls, keep quiet about it and don't keep reminding me that all this is possible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I want to know what was offensive | Jun 4, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I encourage you to report any offence to Proz.com's staff or the moderators so that they can take action! Absolutely. What this site needs is more threads locked or deleted.
Actually I was more interested in knowing what was considered offensive. I haven't had a chance to read every reply, but I somewhat feel that "offensiveness" very much depends on the opinion of the reader. Saying that there are offensive comments in this forum really requires information on what was considered offensive by the reader. I am simply curious!
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Williamson wrote:
Organisation or not: There is no way that you work against a deadline with a baby/child constantly requiring your attention without help of others (hubby, child-care, etc...).
As you seem to have a soft spot for general rules: There is no way that you work professionally while being oblivious of what you can judge and what you can't.
| | | | | Why did you write about a separate forum then? | Jun 4, 2009 |
Silvia Barra wrote: When I put this suggestion I didn't think this forum would become a place for exchanging offence, predjudices and the like. First of all, I thank you all people who support my idea, yes, maybe the title could be "freelancing and lifestyle", as this is what I meant. I accept all your ideas, and I repeat that mine was just a suggestion. I did not intend making some discrimination nor feminism (I'm absolutely not a feminist!). If Prozians do not like this thread it's all like before, no problem. I'd like only to state some things for people thinking that it is impossible working with a baby crying on one side. 1. I assure it is possible: I've a 2 years old boy and never missed a deadline, nor any client said me the translation was not accurate. I even worked when my baby was ill or at hospital, with good results. 2. Being a working mother does not mean working in spare time from Pampers and toys: it means working hard maybe at night, when the child sleeps and optimizing the time in order to spend some more time with the family. This is not so different for mothers (and fathers) who does not work at home (what about your concentration at your in-house work - mothers and fathers - after a night asleep because your child cried all the night, (or because your dog was ill)?) 3. Being a mother and working at home does not necessary mean having your baby with you: my little boy during the day stays with his grandparents, so I'm completely alone and concentrated. When he'll grow, he'll go to school, so no problem. 4. As Els said: " I do not add to my hubby's salary, we both contribute to our family's income - and my contribution is greater than his. But I am also a mother and I try to balance work and family life. As that is not always easy and I could sometimes use advice and tips from other mothers, I would be in favour of a forum where I could ask my colleagues for advice. That's all. I don't like the way you talk about me and my fellow work-at-home moms. I am no less a professional than you are." Mine is the same situation. I have a degree in chemistry and a Master in translation and I never thought being less professional than others who work in-house and make career (nor less professional than men!!!). 5. I'm sorry seeing that all over the world women's work is considered less than men's because women have to care about house and such a things. I thought this kind of thinking was present only in Italy. 6. All these points are true also for fathers who work at home. And if your child has not school and he stays at home crying and playing what do you do fathers? I stop here my comments. I still think that a forum helping freelancers who work at home (above all) managing all aspects of daily life (children and washing machines but not only) can be useful, but I can live also without it, as I did until now. If it is out ProZ forum rules I do not discuss. Thank you all for your participation. Silvia PS Maybe if all this people answered about this suggestion, maybe, it would not be such a bad idea...  PS2: Sorry for my English, I'm not English mother tongue
From the points you have mentioned above I understood the followings (Correct if I misunderstood):
- Your intention was just discussing the possible troubles/difficulties or other issues that mothers and women faced in their everyday translation life.
So then why have you proposed a separate forum? because you may create a good title such as "Women and Mothers: Let's talk about our everyday life" or "Women's/Mothers' Lifestyle" in off-topic forum and there would be a lot of postings.
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| People are incredible | Jun 4, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Organisation or not: There is no way that you work against a deadline with a baby/child constantly requiring your attention without help of others (hubby, child-care, etc...).
I just wanted to say that this could be your personal experience, but parents (this includes both mothers and fathers) are capable of going ten extra miles to cope with work in a dozen different ways when children need care and attention. Being a mother or father does not mean you cannot be professional and honour your promises.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Some more comments from me | Jun 4, 2009 |
Silvia Barra wrote:
When I put this suggestion I didn't think this forum would become a place for exchanging offence, predjudices and the like.
When I saw the topic, without even reading the first post, I knew for a fact that this thread would result in about 20% objective debate and 80% of mud throwing. I myself have been surprised in the past after making innocent suggestions only to discover that what I had suggested is regarded as very, very bad or evil by others.
At the start of our country's new president's term, he created a new ministry in government, specially for women and children. You can imagine what outrage that caused... despite the fact that there were probably very good reasons for his decision (most crimes are committed against women and children, and women and children are several times more vulnerable to exploitation in my country than men).
I would have had no objection to a forum for women and mothers, and I would probably have been an active participant in it, despite being a man.
But I realise that there are women who feel that any attempt to treat women in a special way should be regarded as an attempt to belittle women and reduce their importance in the general world. In the view of such women, creating a separate place for women is simply an attempt (usually by men) to remove women from the general world, which would result in the general world becoming reserved for men.
I also realise that there are men who feel threatened by attempts to treat women in a special way, because by extension that would mean that men are regarded as being unsuited for certain treatment or somehow disqualified from having certain thoughts or experiences.
I must say I'm surprised by some of the aggressive reactions to your initial post -- I knew there would be mud slinging but I didn't realise it would be this bad. I had expected rants, but not tantrums.
I did not intend making some discrimination nor feminism (I'm absolutely not a feminist!).
I believe you are not a feminist. But there are countries in the world where women have been so neutered and culture has become so saturated with equality that any attempt to treat women in a special way or to regard mothers (or even fathers) with any type of reverence is automatically regarded as something feminist.
5. I'm sorry seeing that all over the world women's work is considered less than men's because women have to care about house and such a things.
I suspect you are over-reacting with this comment of yours. The idea that women's work is considered less than men's can only be inferred in one or two posts in this thread -- it does not seem to be the general feeling in most of the replies.
If your original intention was to provide some sort of support forum for translators who work from home and who have to cope with children and parenting issues, then I fully support the original idea (no matter what it is called). But I also repeat my support for Viktoria's compromise solution, namely a forum for freelance translator lifestyle.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| A question for Laura | Jun 4, 2009 |
Laura Tridico wrote: M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:
How you expect me to write constructive and complimentary words about a subject which frankly includes feminism and separation? I'm afraid I can't even comprehend what you mean by this. Political? Religious???
I'm a little perplexed at your reply to Ali's post. It would seem to me that you regard feminism as a political thing, and separation as a religious thing. Is this correct?
I understand that historical feminism (from about 100 years ago) was primarily concerned with giving women the right to vote, so it is largely political in nature. But I'm also under the impression that modern feminism is not purely political in nature (in fact, very little of it would seem to concern politics these days). Is it different in your country? Is feminism regarded in your region as purely political?
I'm also confused by how the idea of separation (in this context, separation between men and women, and between fathers and mothers) can be seen as a primarily religious view. I realise that some religions make a very clear distinction between the roles of men and women in family and even in society, but I can't think of any religion (except certain streams of christianity) that justifies such separation for theoligical reasons. Much as I try, I can't think of any reason why separation (of this kind in particular) can be seen as religous. Can you explain it to me, from your own cultural perspective?
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Local time: 17:59
French to English
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| A special note on this posting | Jun 4, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
I don't quite understand how you can work concentrate fully on a project, do intensive searches and work to deliver on time with a baby crying in its cot, which has to be (breast)-fed and hubby off to work. Your life is not centred around translation,but being a mother and translating on the sideline to add an extra to hubbies income. So why bother to give this lady decent rates? That is the view of the general public.
Williamson, when you post this kind of stereotypical drivel - and fail to challenge it - you are promoting the very viewpoint that you mention. There's some kind of bizarre assumption that women who translate, and who are also mothers, are running around all day with one hand on a baby and the other on the laptop, frazzled and unable to concentrate, working for pocket money and unconcerned with quality. It leaves an impression that having children and a husband disqualifies a person as being a "serious" professional. This is not the reality of professional translators who are also mothers. Funny, I never hear people saying this about male freelancers who are married to working women. But I suppose those men are just amateurs working for pocket change too.
The fact that so many people still hold these ideas proves that we still have a long way to go.
Maybe some people believe we have to hide the fact that we have children to be professional. I disagree with that view. My work and my business speaks for itself.
Considering the substantial of working mothers who make up this profession, perhaps this kind of posting could be damaging to the profession, contributing to downward pressure on rates by promoting a flawed stereotype that impacts a large percentage of translators. Fortunately, I doubt this is true. Most agencies and clients I deal with have a better grasp of reality.
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Laura Tridico
United States
Local time: 17:59
French to English
+ ...
| Actually, Samuel, I was befuddled by the reference to politics and religion at all... | Jun 4, 2009 |
in the context of this discussion. Ali made reference to the site rules in support of his idea that the original posting was inappropriate. However, I didn't see anything political or religious about Silvia's suggestion. Thus, my question marks.
A discussion of feminism as a political issue, or a discussion on gender and religion, would not be appropriate here. The original issue was whether it was appropriate to have a parents' forum, which developed into the concept of a lifestyle... See more in the context of this discussion. Ali made reference to the site rules in support of his idea that the original posting was inappropriate. However, I didn't see anything political or religious about Silvia's suggestion. Thus, my question marks.
A discussion of feminism as a political issue, or a discussion on gender and religion, would not be appropriate here. The original issue was whether it was appropriate to have a parents' forum, which developed into the concept of a lifestyle forum. The other stuff is just a sideshow. But when that stuff comes up, I can't let it rest. I think that unfounded stereotypes about working mothers need to be challenged on the merits. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Let's concentrate on the suggestion itself | Jun 4, 2009 |
Hello all,
Again, thanks to Silvia for the suggestion. The idea of discussions on translator lifestyles sounds interesting. Why don't we start by posting some of those topics in the Off-topic forum?
I'll ask everyone to keep it courteous and to refrain from further discussion here which is not directly related to the suggestion presented. Thanks.
Best regards,
Jared
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Laura Tridico wrote:
in the context of this discussion. Ali made reference to the site rules in support of his idea that the original posting was inappropriate. However, I didn't see anything political or religious about Silvia's suggestion. Thus, my question marks.
A discussion of feminism as a political issue, or a discussion on gender and religion, would not be appropriate here. The original issue was whether it was appropriate to have a parents' forum, which developed into the concept of a lifestyle forum. The other stuff is just a sideshow. But when that stuff comes up, I can't let it rest. I think that unfounded stereotypes about working mothers need to be challenged on the merits.
I have put the bold "b" mark on wrong place
it should be as follows:
controversial in nature, or that may be considered offensive by other users
[Edited at 2009-06-04 12:37 GMT]
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Thank you, Jared, I did as you suggested and posted a parenting question on the Off Topic forum. Let's see what happens!
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| I'm all for it... | Jun 4, 2009 |
why not? Let's not pretend it doesn't apply to our profession, because it does.... most translators are female and many with children, so it's very relevant. In alternative, a general lifestyle forum would be good...
Giovanni (who looks after 4 children whilst working...)
P.S. Just because one thinks it's impossible to be a translator with children and still deliver professional work, it doesn't mean it's not possible...
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Some on-topic responses to previous posters | Jun 4, 2009 |
Jared wrote:
The idea of discussions on translator lifestyles sounds interesting. Why don't we start by posting some of those topics in the Off-topic forum?
LittleBalu wrote:
You can start a thread in the forum on anything you like even now by simply marking it as being "off topic". There's no need for a dedicated forum that's totally unrelated to the translation business.
Laureana Pavon wrote:
Why not start a thread in the "off-topic/other" category? I think that's the best solution and one you can implement right away.
There seems to be this idea among some people that home or lifestyle related issues are off-topic when it comes to freelance translation. Nothing can be further from the truth, I think.
Part-time freelancers and moonlighting freelancers may not be as aware of the fact that running a business from home usually/always means running a home and a business together. And homes have issues... such as children at various ages, spouses with various expectations, friends and neighbours with more expecations, various domestic crisises etc.
The above aspects of freelance translation are certainly not off-topic, and it would be silly to post it under such a heading.
Evija Rimšāne wrote:
Then, what about a forum for men related to cars and motorbikes?
Erik Hansson wrote:
What about married, divorced or single mothers, and the fathers? And don't forget about the left-handed / right-handed married, divorced or single ones, mixed up with vegetarians/non-vegetarians, and/or dog/cat/horse/guinea pig owners and so on.
Rad Graban wrote:
[How about ...] seperate forums for fathers, gays, lesbians, single persons, married ones, divorsed, those in civil partnership... you name it.
I suspect an important aspect of the freelancers lifestyle forum idea is that issue of coping. Freelance translators have to merge home life with professional life in some or other way. Some have separate offices at home and ensure that they arrange for child minders etc, whereas others work split-shifts and use their freedom as freelancers to spend more time with their families than they otherwise could.
No doubt some freelancers feel overwhelmed or even distracted by their home issues -- but freelancers won't be successful if they aren't able to cope with it, and in my opinion being able to discuss ways of coping with it all would certainly be a business related discussion, for a freelancer.
There is no need to cope with hobbies -- if a hobby interferes with your work, simply drop it. Coping with being gay or not gay, single or not single, meat eater or vegetarian, etc are in my opinion personal issues that should normally not interfere with being a freelancer (although I could be wrong).
One of the nice things about being a full-time freelancer is the freedom to do things in your own time which office workers would have to worry about when to do. Unfortunately there is also the expectation that freelancers do such things, precisely because they are able to. This is very relevant to business. It's all about coping.
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 23:59
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Let's start again? | Jun 4, 2009 |
Jared is right here, I suppose...
Considering that even Silvia, as the topic starter, has reconsidered the focus of the suggestion (so that the new forum discusses various issues relevant to freelancers' lifestyle), maybe it would be right to post a new suggestion and withdraw from this topic? This would allow those in favor (and those against) to avoid all posters who are still beating up straw men... And straw women, I feel compelled to add. ... See more Jared is right here, I suppose...
Considering that even Silvia, as the topic starter, has reconsidered the focus of the suggestion (so that the new forum discusses various issues relevant to freelancers' lifestyle), maybe it would be right to post a new suggestion and withdraw from this topic? This would allow those in favor (and those against) to avoid all posters who are still beating up straw men... And straw women, I feel compelled to add. ▲ Collapse
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