| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | 请帮忙看一个荷兰的电话号码 Thread poster: Shouguang Cao
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QUOI 
Chinese to English
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道理很简单，当你倒在地上被人踹裆子而不能还手的时候，你就明白了。
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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... wrote:
为什么还要看？
"..." or "... at large" or "abinitio",
This topic is about the cheating practices of some people who used fake identities and didn’t pay translators for their hard work. Obviously, the conversation between Jason Young and me under this topic not only sticks to the topic but also is closely related to another discussion which is currently going on:
Warning: Bad payer in Shanghai, 10000 usd unpaid
http://www.proz.com/topic/137822#137822
If you still have difficulty to understand my words, let me give you a little hint as below. Apparently, the personal attack you launched on me is completely ridiculous! If you don’t delete your previous post and make an apology to me as soon as possible, I will certainly submit a support request ticket.
Jason Young wrote: 的确 ysun wrote:
正规的客户或翻译社一般都会把较大的项目交给与他们长期合作的翻译去做，因为交给陌生人他们自己也不放心。 的确是这样，有时候换位思考也会很有帮助。 我也一直在警惕和祈祷，希望自己不要上当受骗，翻译这东西毕竟是个“高能耗”的苦差使。目前运气还不算太差（呸呸呸，风 sometimes can be very 邪），只碰到过两个让人不太待见的客户。第一个：首个项目付款很按时，后来便开始拖拖拉拉，总得发两三个REMINDER之后才付款，最近来单子只甩给他们三个字：SORRY， FULLY BOOKED。第二个，长期不间断地招募新译员，发散单/小单给这些译员做，他们对我的译稿很满意，但就是不发第二个稿给我（已有半年），几十DOLLAR就一直拖着，我也没发INVOICE，因为还不够扣银行手续费的（公司拒绝使用任何网付工具，只用银行）。由此看来（针对后者），每个译员可以被他们利用两次，一次是所谓的测试稿，另一次则是第一个也是最后一个小项目。前两天突然想起这第二个客户，便“即兴”发了INVOICE给他们，看他们怎么处理  [Edited at 2009-06-23 04:16 GMT]
ysun wrote:
是的
对于那些以伪装面目出现的骗子、流氓，没什么客气可讲！就是应该彻底揭穿这种人渣的伪装！
[Edited at 2009-06-24 21:35 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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... wrote:
网站规则，自然有网站管理人员根据需要解释和执行，不用你操心
"..." or "... at large" or "abinitio",
I remember that Kevin made a similar explanation to you sometimes ago：
http://www.proz.com/post/833621#833621
Kevin Yang wrote:
abinitio，
The mentioned case has nothing to do with you. I am not clear why you need to bring it to this thread to discuss. It is my decision due to certain violation to the forums rules. There is no rule saying I need to explain about it.
Kevin
[修改时间: 2008-04-14 06:11]
[Edited at 2009-06-24 17:17 GMT]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 21:15
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| 只有大家都操心，才能把这个网站办好。 | Jun 24, 2009 |
ysun wrote:
对于那些以伪装面目出现的骗子、流氓，没什么客气可讲！就是应该彻底揭穿这种人渣的伪装！
... wrote:
你称此人为“骗子”，想必你受了此人的骗。那么，该写support ticket，该报警或是提出法律诉讼，赶紧，别耽误了。其他受骗者也可以采取同样行动。
你称此人为“流氓”，想必此人耍流氓搞了你。同样，该写support ticket，该报警或是提出法律诉讼，赶紧，别耽误了。其他被此人耍了流氓的人也可以采取同样行动。
否则，请你不要在这里摆出一副为民除害，正义卫士的样子，整天喋喋不休。来这里的人至少都完成了基本教育，肉和渣都能分清。请你到其他地方去解决与此人的个人冤仇。
网站规则，自然有网站管理人员根据需要解释和执行，不用你操心“As far as I know”。也请你看看网站总则第二条标题：
Mutual respect, professionalism and fair play are expected
at large...
这里讨论的是承包商使用了翻译的服务后逃之夭夭的问题。这种欺诈行为是一种网络犯罪，直接造成了翻译业务的损失，严重破坏了网络生意市场的正常运作，包括ysun在内的翻译们对各种欺诈行为所进行的批判和挞伐是可以理解的，没有超出论坛的的规定。可是，你的上述帖子明显是针对syun的帖子有感而发的，充斥着你对syun本人的不满情绪。你的用词和说话方式引起了当事人的反感。请你必须立刻停止，保证不再发生。我们讲互相尊重就要从自己做起。
另外，本网站的维护是靠大家维护的，不只是管理员的工作。只有大家都操心，才能把这个网站办好。
Kevin
[修改时间: 2009-06-24 18:48 GMT]
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redred
China
Local time: 12:15
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jyuan_us wrote:
不斷地發JOB POSTINGS﹐並引誘新譯員給他BB加個5分﹐然後就不再給你項目。在他們的BB里﹐有7-8個好的中文翻譯給他加了5分﹐可是他還是不斷地為了畢業證書這種小活找新翻譯﹐而不是找老翻譯做。目前個語種已有幾百人給他5分﹐被利用的翻譯還在每天增加中。。。我暈倒。
[Edited at 2009-06-24 00:10 GMT]
BB得分多，排位就靠得很前了。
| | | | Angeline PhD
China
Local time: 12:15
English to Chinese
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| I am Angeline | Jun 25, 2009 |
wherestip wrote: PhD Angeline H wrote:
It isn´t difficult at all to see through the manipulation behind the way you hammer at someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum.
Well, educate me. The only manipulation I've seen in this forum is people assuming multiple identities, which promptly got stopped by ProZ.com staff.
First of all, I'd like to announce here, I am Angeline, I come form Shanghai China, I organized powwow Shanghai twice. I only have one ID in Proz.
wherestip, you quoted my post, and you said "people assuming multiple identities", if you think I had another ID, and this might disturb you or anyone else, support ticket, please.
I don't have the slightest interest in educating you, though I am a teacher. I posted my view here, just like Kevin said "有感而发"，I welcome any view about my post, positive and negative. Up to now, it seems that my post doesn’t embarrass anyone else, except you two.
ysun wrote:
主张 "fair play" 的人们不能太天真。如果说曾经有 someone "who is deprived of self-defense in this forum"，那也只不过是其咎由自取而已。如果是个正常人，为什么要在此 assuming multiple identities？ As far as I know, "assuming multiple identities" is regarded as a fraud at Proz.com.
不知主张 "fair play" 的人们是否见过这个 someone "hammer at" many others 的时候？
What's the meaning of fair play? In this posting, you urged people who plead for “fair play” not to be too naive. You asserted, should there be someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum, it was of his own fault. Should that someone a normalperson?
As Kevin said:
"可是，你的上述帖子明显是针对ysun的帖子有感而发的，充斥着你对ysun本人的不满情绪。你的用词和说话方式引起了当事人的反感 。请你必须立刻停止，保证不再发生。我们讲互相尊重就要从自己做起。"
For me, Your post caused a lot of bad feelings, I'd like to know what's the definition of "normal"? I paid my membership fee, I want learn something useful from other people here, I don’t want to pay for any bad feelings.
Please bear in mind "Do not do to others what you don't want to be done to you（己所不欲，勿施于人）"。
To Kevin:
Who will benefit from this forum? Everyone here, and who is useful for this forum, everyone here. If someone is welcome here, why? He is welcome by many colleagues. He shows us the ways how to become real translators and how to achieve better rates, and how to promote our translation career. I believe his contribution in this forum has been appreciated by many, and particularly, newcomers at Proz would go over to his threads and find out some very good advice.
Such a person is the hardcore of this forum. Condemning and support are necessary, but I believe, good experience is most favorite, espical how to prevent such things from the very beginning.
Just my two cents.
Angeline
[Edited at 2009-06-25 05:52 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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| Who is deprived of self-defense in this forum? | Jun 25, 2009 |
PhD Angeline H wrote:
It isn´t difficult at all to see through the manipulation behind the way you hammer at someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum.
Angeline,
Could you please let me know “who is deprived of self-defense in this forum”? Did he or she appear in this thread of discussion? Who has hammered at “someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum”? How and where? Unless you clarify these points, any discussion about “someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum” would be meaningless.
BTW, I don’t think your post embarrassed Steve and me at all. Why should we feel embarrassed while we did nothing wrong? I didn’t even know what you were talking about in your post of yesterday. That’s why I didn’t even respond to that post yesterday. I responded to Steve’s, not yours. The last but not the least, nobody said you assumed multiple identities. You are just too sensitive! Therefore, you don’t need to have any bad feelings. Cheer up!
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 23:15
Chinese to English
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PhD Angeline H wrote: wherestip wrote: PhD Angeline H wrote:
It isn´t difficult at all to see through the manipulation behind the way you hammer at someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum.
Well, educate me. The only manipulation I've seen in this forum is people assuming multiple identities, which promptly got stopped by ProZ.com staff. First of all, I'd like to announce here, I am Angeline, I come form Shanghai China, I organized powwow Shanghai twice. I only have one ID in Proz. wherestip, you quoted my post, and you said "people assuming multiple identities", if you think I had another ID, and this might disturb you or anyone else, support ticket, please. I don't have the slightest interest in educating you, though I am a teacher. I posted my view here, just like Kevin said "有感而发"，I welcome any view about my post, positive and negative. Up to now, it seems that my post doesn’t embarrass anyone else, except you two.
Angeline,
To clarify, the word "educate", in the sense that I used it, does not assume a superior or inferior position of any party. I was merely asking you to substantiate the claim of "manipulation" you've observed in the forum. If you are unwilling or unable to do so, so be it.
Like Yueyin said, I feel no embarrassment about any posts I've posted in this forum. Neither am I embarrassed by responding to your post and asking for your clarification of what "manipulation" you are referring to. Is anyone who responds to your post supposed to feel embarrassed by it
And how's the baby, by the way?
[Edited at 2009-06-26 11:24 GMT]
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ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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| Totally agree | Jun 25, 2009 |
wherestip wrote:
I was merely asking you to substantiate the claim of "manipulation" you've observed in the forum. If you are unwilling or unable to do so, so be it.
Totally agree. If Angeline is unwilling or unable to answer my above questions either, that’s also fine. It doesn’t matter to me at all. Period.
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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| Don’t be too sensitive | Jun 25, 2009 |
Angeline,
In my post in response to Steve’s post, I asked “如果是个正常人，为什么要在此 assuming multiple identities？” However, it didn’t mean that I thought you assumed multiple identities or you were not a normal person. As I mentioned above, “nobody said you assumed multiple identities. You are just too sensitive!” Similarly, nobody said you were not a normal person. I believe this is very obvious to everybody here ex... See more Angeline,
In my post in response to Steve’s post, I asked “如果是个正常人，为什么要在此 assuming multiple identities？” However, it didn’t mean that I thought you assumed multiple identities or you were not a normal person. As I mentioned above, “nobody said you assumed multiple identities. You are just too sensitive!” Similarly, nobody said you were not a normal person. I believe this is very obvious to everybody here except you (unfortunately!). If my post indeed caused you “a lot of bad feelings”, I have to say that it’s your own problem, not mine.
As to “… at large”’s post, that is a completely different story. In response to my post, “… at large” launched a personal attack using very indecent, offensive and insulting language just because of his own misunderstanding. You thought what Kevin said to him could also be applied to my case, that’s another big misunderstanding on your part. Cheer up!
PhD Angeline H wrote: ysun wrote:
主张 "fair play" 的人们不能太天真。如果说曾经有 someone "who is deprived of self-defense in this forum"，那也只不过是其咎由自取而已。如果是个正常人，为什么要在此 assuming multiple identities？ As far as I know, "assuming multiple identities" is regarded as a fraud at Proz.com.
不知主张 "fair play" 的人们是否见过这个 someone "hammer at" many others 的时候？ What's the meaning of fair play? In this posting, you urged people who plead for “fair play” not to be too naive. You asserted, should there be someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum, it was of his own fault. Should that someone a normalperson? As Kevin said: "可是，你的上述帖子明显是针对ysun的帖子有感而发的，充斥着你对ysun本人的不满情绪。你的用词和说话方式引起了当事人的反感 。请你必须立刻停止，保证不再发生。我们讲互相尊重就要从自己做起。" For me, Your post caused a lot of bad feelings, I'd like to know what's the definition of "normal"? I paid my membership fee, I want learn something useful from other people here, I don’t want to pay for any bad feelings. Please bear in mind " Do not do to others what you don't want to be done to you（己所不欲，勿施于人）"。 Angeline [Edited at 2009-06-25 05:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 21:15
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| Contribution and violation should not mix and they do not compromise each other. | Jun 26, 2009 |
PhD Angeline H wrote:
To Kevin:
Who will benefit from this forum? Everyone here, and who is useful for this forum, everyone here. If someone is welcome here, why? He is welcome by many colleagues. He shows us the ways how to become real translators and how to achieve better rates, and how to promote our translation career. I believe his contribution in this forum has been appreciated by many, and particularly, newcomers at Proz would go over to his threads and find out some very good advice.
Such a person is the hardcore of this forum. Condemning and support are necessary, but I believe, good experience is most favorite, espical how to prevent such things from the very beginning.
Just my two cents.
Angeline
Angeline，
Thank you for sharing your view and voicing your opinion. This forum is for all those professional translators who can follow the rules. It is for those happy campers and those who know how to interact with others in a mutual respect manner. If someone repeatedly violates the forum and KudoZ rules, and makes it difficult to carry out discussions professionally, he is not welcomed here. This is a community that everyone is trying to build and maintain. However, please keep in mind, contribution and violation should not mix and they do not compromise each other. Every administrative decision made in this forum has always been and will always be based on solid facts. In a recent post of yours, you used the word “deprive” which is clearly a misperception at your end. If you would like to challenge any particular decision on behalf of anyone, I suggest you should file your support ticket.
For your information, the recent identify discussion was about an incident happened recently in the Chinese Forum. It was not about you.
Kevin Yang
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 23:15
English to Chinese
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| A piece of advice | Jun 26, 2009 |
Angeline,
既然你不愿明确说明这个 "someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum” 是谁，那我就不勉强，因为我知道这是个 embarrassing question 。但我想给你一点点忠告：别为他人火中取栗。
如 Kevin 所说，"deprived of self-defense” 是你的 misperception。按照ProZ.com 的说法，是 "suspending, temporarily or permanently” 或 "termination of... See more Angeline,
既然你不愿明确说明这个 "someone who is deprived of self-defense in this forum” 是谁，那我就不勉强，因为我知道这是个 embarrassing question。但我想给你一点点忠告：别为他人火中取栗。
如 Kevin 所说，"deprived of self-defense” 是你的 misperception。按照ProZ.com 的说法，是 "suspending, temporarily or permanently” 或 "termination of profile or membership (staff only)"。"A person whose profile has been terminated will not be readmitted to ProZ.com.” 详见：
http://www.proz.com/rules
某人因屡次严重犯规而受到 "termination of profile" 的严厉处置。那是三振出局，完全是他咎由自取。你也别问这个“某人”是指谁，因为答案对“某人”而言将是个 embarrassing answer。我不知你所说的那个 "someone” 与我所说的“某人”是否会巧合。但我相信，当时 management 对某人做出此决定是极其慎重的。这种情况是一个 "rare case"。该出局者后来亲自起草了一份请愿书，企图运用“潜规则”让某些与他有合作关系的同事为他联名上诉。 其中某位同事感到实难从命，就把那份请愿书转发给我，问我如何应对为妥。 可见，这世界上还有金钱买不到的东西。其实，这是人生最简单的道理。 那个死在“梦幻城”的色鬼邓贵大死就死在他根本就不懂这个最简单的道理，以为金钱万能。 更有甚者，某人甚至曾在此以极为下流的语言宣称“價錢對的話，祖母也可賣”！如果他祖母听见这话，不知会有何感想？
以前你似乎从未介入过此论坛上的是非纠纷。我建议你现在也不要介入。 如果你一定要介入，恐怕你得花大量时间把上千有关帖子都看一遍，否则就难以明白事情真相，也难以做出正确判断。 况且，还有大量严重犯规的帖子已被 moderators 屏蔽，你现在无法再看到。所以，如果你想要主持公道，任务极为艰巨。 建议你还是把精力集中在你的事业上，同时尽情享受家庭生活的乐趣。以上是我的一点点忠告。 当然，无论你是否接受这点忠告，我绝不勉强。
[Edited at 2009-06-27 03:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 23:15
Chinese to English
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| 新鲜, 又不新鲜 - 有自己给自己写联名信的吗? | Jun 27, 2009 |
ysun wrote:
该出局者后来亲自起草了一份请愿书，企图运用“潜规则”让某些与他有合作关系的同事为他联名上诉。 其中某位同事感到实难从命，就把那份请愿书转发给我，问我如何应对为妥。 可见，这世界上还有金钱买不到的东西。其实，这是人生最简单的道理。
Well, we've seen that before, haven't we? If you ask me, it's a pretty underhanded thing to do, just like assuming fake identities in the forum for whatever reason. But I also understand that "it takes all sorts to make a world".
I remember chance being so fed up with getting these kinds of correspondences, she made quite an issue of it here in the forum.
Incidentally, that's one thing I like about chance. She might have a different opinion on some issues from time to time, but she typically does everything aboveboard, without resorting to personal attacks. Moreover, she's usually respectful of peers, even if their opinions differ from hers. That's a good quality in a person I hope she never loses.
In this regard, lots of others come to mind too
On a slightly different note, I said to Wenjer when we last exchanged words: Respect others, and others would respect you in return. Be nice to others, and others would be nice to you in return - BTW, so many of the posts got deleted in that thread, I'm not sure if those words are still there anymore.
Frankly speaking, although I was unhappy about the way he conducted himself in this forum, and was pretty miffed at what he said in that controversial post of his at the time, a lot of the things I said to him were truly for his own good. He apparently saw it differently, and ridiculed me as shedding crocodile tears. I know that is neither here nor there at this point. Yet I would like to say this to him - 'cause he just might be following the posts in this forum - There are no hard feelings on my part. And I wish him well.
[Edited at 2009-06-28 06:41 GMT]
| | | | Shouguang Cao
China
Local time: 12:15
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
我没有时间也不想争论什么，只想简单地说出自己的想法。既然大家都扯远了，我也就乱讲一通吧。
某人就是 Wenjer。
在我的印象中，Wenjer 是一个极其热心，精力极其旺胜，话极其多的人。在他被封掉之前，kudoz leaders 榜上一直都是第一或第二，可见这人有多热心，对社区的贡献也不应被忽视。
根据官方的说法，此人犯了严重问题，所以被禁言，�... See more 我没有时间也不想争论什么，只想简单地说出自己的想法。既然大家都扯远了，我也就乱讲一通吧。
某人就是 Wenjer。
在我的印象中，Wenjer 是一个极其热心，精力极其旺胜，话极其多的人。在他被封掉之前，kudoz leaders 榜上一直都是第一或第二，可见这人有多热心，对社区的贡献也不应被忽视。
根据官方的说法，此人犯了严重问题，所以被禁言，后来甚至被删除 ID。
我对 proz.com 这种处理非常不赞同。将人禁言实非明智之举，如果真要禁，那是不是应多禁几个？或者干脆把说话的人都禁了。那岂不是更安静了？
我来 proz 也时间不短了，刚开始充满了敬畏之心。随着对它了解越来越多，我对它就愈发不喜欢。
整体上讲，感觉 proz.com 论坛非常强调秩序，可能是有点过于强调了，为了秩序，贴子会被改名和移动（大多数时候会被改得更加切题，对于这种做法，我说不上反对）；基于简单的判断，一些会员会被禁止发言（反对）；让我没有想到的是，为了所谓的秩序和纪律，有人居然还能被删除 ID。
proz.com 的井井有条是靠各版主的辛勤劳动而实现的。作为一个专业论坛，版主之所以为版主，应是因为其专业知识和经验得到了其他参与者的认可。而 proz.com 的版主则更像警察、像行政长官，自上而下指认（？）。大多数的精力都用在了维持秩序上。更让我惊讶的是：这一切工作还都是免费的！一个德高望重的专业人士，如何会自愿免费为一个商业提供与自己的专业不怎么相干的服务？
近期因 linkedin 和 facebook 通过 crowdsourcing 为自己的网站做本地化而引起专业翻译的不满。proz.com 作为一个商业网站，为什么还要免费利用版主？作为翻译网站，居然利用免费 crowdsourcing 本地化自己的网站，实在不是尊重这个行业，尊重翻译的做法。
在 proz.com 的人不用说都是有文化，有知识的，不能说脏话是毫无疑问的啦，还要全方位政治正确，不能有不标准的网络用语或黑话，一切都看上去很美，谁让咱有文化呢。然而对于语言大师来说，暴力、恶意和恶毒的招数完全可以道貌岸然地发出来的，这三点，中文论坛上可是一点都不缺呢。
朝鲜有个女主播，极为生猛，以强势的语气和不容辩驳的语法向敌人发出控诉。用朝鲜官方的说法，此人一张口，即可让敌人肝胆俱裂。这种气氛，是不是在主导着 proz.com 中文论坛？试问各位，你们认为我们念叨的那些 proz 精神，真得存在于这个论坛么？
[Edited at 2009-06-27 19:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 00:15
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
多元化是價值的核心，聲音只來自一方令人厭倦，是沒參予的主因。
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