| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | False translators, true agencies Thread poster: Arnaud HERVE
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ScottishWildCat wrote:
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less... any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...
I agree, but honestly: if being in "the community", "the nation", "mankind", "society" means imposing all sorts of unexplained, unjustified judgements and innecessary, unwanted rules, and therefore a tight grip around each member's neck... don't count me in! I will not be a member of anything of that kind and will not feel accountable for such actions.
What happened to "Live and let live"? Do we want a soviet regime here? Please, folks!
| | | | Arnaud HERVE 
France
Local time: 23:20
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Network & Trust | Jun 22, 2009 |
Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
A translator got a well-paid job from an agency and then asked other translators (including myself) via mass email whether anybody would be interested in doing the translation - at a much lower rate than what the agency was going to pay her.
I think it would be useful to differentiate those who share work at the same rate and those who distribute with a profit.
It is splendid to have a network of professionals in case of emergency, but trust must exist.
| | | | | Trust is for honest people | Jun 22, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
It is splendid to have a network of professionals in case of emergency, but trust must exist.
Trust is something you grant to honest people, and I think each of us knows quite well who to trust, from experience and from gut feeling.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 23:20
French to German
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| My point of view | Jun 23, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: What happened to "Live and let live"? Do we want a soviet regime here? Please, folks!
My point of view is that I can run my business without harming others, while some (highly-diplomed, which IMHO makes it even worse) colleagues behave as if they were unable to live and work without stabbing someone else in the back.
As per the soviet regime, and without even speaking of translation portals, we already have it, only that the Supreme Soviet bears the name Money.
FWIW
Laurent K.
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Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 23:20
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Well anyway, there is a shady area where the formerly lonely translator recruits more and more colleagues.
- It depends on the transparency. For instance some translators post jobs on Proz, which is transparent
- It depends if they keep a profit
- It depends if they do it often or not
Overall, I would say a translator turning into a recruiter would find it interesting to remain with an individual Proz profile. Simple reason : not an official ag... See more Well anyway, there is a shady area where the formerly lonely translator recruits more and more colleagues.
- It depends on the transparency. For instance some translators post jobs on Proz, which is transparent
- It depends if they keep a profit
- It depends if they do it often or not
Overall, I would say a translator turning into a recruiter would find it interesting to remain with an individual Proz profile. Simple reason : not an official agency, no corporate taxes. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Is Proz.com tied to the law of a specific country? | Jun 23, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
Overall, I would say a translator turning into a recruiter would find it interesting to remain with an individual Proz profile. Simple reason : not an official agency, no corporate taxes.
I think this whole forum strongly relates to the law of France, which apparently makes is a difference between professionals who do all work alone and professionals who hire other professionals. French and German law may have a distinction, but... does this distinction apply to Proz.com? I don't think so. Maybe you are confronting this with the mentality of your local policymakers...
I sincerely wonder how French and German law manages a very simple situation: a translator who has to hire a reviewer and a DTP person for each and every job. The review and DTP are part of the finished job, but maybe cannot/should not be done by the translator. How does French law consider that? Is this translator allowed to charge and pay for that work or would it turn the translator into a company?
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 23:20
French to German
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| Main issue: making a benefit margin | Jun 23, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I sincerely wonder how French and German law manages a very simple situation: a translator who has to hire a reviewer and a DTP person for each and every job. The review and DTP are part of the finished job, but maybe cannot/should not be done by the translator. How does French law consider that? Is this translator allowed to charge and pay for that work or would it turn the translator into a company?
Hi again Tomás,
French law does not forbid to hire e.g. a reviewer and/or a DTPer. It rules against the fact that you add your own benefit margin to the amount they invoice for the provision of their services when you are a freelance without legal personality.
IOW, the final invoice to the end client should be: amount invoiced by yourself (translation) + net amount invoiced to you by the reviewer + net amount invoiced to you by the DTPer.
It may be related to French and German laws - I would like to know more the way in which such a situation is managed/would be managed in other countries (again and if this exists: for a freelancer without legal personality).
Laurent
[Edited at 2009-06-23 19:55 GMT]
| | | | | Income - expenses = taxable income | Jun 23, 2009 |
ScottishWildCat wrote:
It may be related to French and German laws - I would like to know more the way in which such a situation is managed/would be managed in other countries (again and if this exists: for a freelancer without legal personality).
I don't know from experience (maybe other colleagues can tell us) as I am not an independent freelancer, but a freelancer in a "community" with another freelancer, my partner. We don't outsource really, only when we need something edited for another flavour of Spanish or some occasional translation from Spanish into another language.
However, I am pretty sure that, should I be just an independent freelancer, in Spain I would be able to outsource as much as I needed, and I would be taxed on the difference between my income and my expenses (no matter the nature of the expenses as long as they are accepted expenses, i.e. I cannot include my personal car or my dogs' vet in the expenses), as simple as that. If my arrangement was something like getting a lot of work and outsourcing most of it, our tax authorities would not care, as far as I am aware
So maybe my opinion that this forum post does not make much sense relates to the fact that outsourcing as a major activity is perfectly legal in Spain for an independent professional.
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Arnaud HERVE wrote:
Overall, I would say a translator turning into a recruiter would find it interesting to remain with an individual Proz profile. Simple reason : not an official agency, no corporate taxes.
Funnily enough, HMRC here in the UK do not assess my tax liability on the basis of my profile on Proz. This is just a venue, there are people here not even using their real names, or any kind of name, eh, Mr Caledonian Feral Feline
(Just kidding, I know you make no secret of your real name, but others keep it well hidden).
Anyway, the self-employed (no separate legal personality) in the UK can and do make a profit charging a mark-up on other people's work. It's all just about revenue minus expenses. In fact, if you earn under 30,000 GBP a year (not even 40,000 EUR at the moment), you only need put those 2 figures on your annual tax return: your total income and your total expenses. No further explanation is required. And there is not much more information required up to 69,000 GBP.
However, depending on your personal circumstances, once you start earning revenue of around 40-50,000 GBP (so, let's say around 60,000 EUR), it can become more beneficial financially to set up a company rather than continue to be self-employed (although I do not believe there is any upper limit on revenue for the self-employed).
So, if you were, in fact, in the UK and making a good, solid, regular income from selling other people's work at a profit, you would, in fact, be well-advised to set up a company anyway. But the fact one has a company has no bearing on one's Proz profile (which is where the thread started).
So as far the as the UK is concerned (and ignoring any professional code of practice considerations) the whole thing is a bit of a non-issue for any UK-based people.
It's perfectly legal for a freelancer to do it.
And if you are doing it a lot, and you are not operating as a company, you should be (probably). And you can have whatever proz profile you bloody like.
| | | | Arnaud HERVE
France
Local time: 23:20
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Good practices | Jun 23, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
So as far as the UK ...
... And you can have whatever proz profile you bloody like.
Well there can be all sorts of specific laws in each country. There are also universal good practices :
- It is not ok to bid as a translator without the intention to do the work yourself
- It is not ok to call a colleague for help without telling him/her you are going to make a profit of it
And I can also add that it is not ok to escape taxes, because it is not so common to declare to your fiscal authorities the profit that you hid from both your client and your sub-contractor.
And to be frank I am surprised to see myself writing those principles down. Maybe I think in a dead language in fact, so it doesn't ring home in English.
I have no problem about companies outsourcing. It's about professionals that I am wondering. I wonder what I would think if I discovered the lawyer or the doctor I had an appointment with will not do the job him/herself whereas s/he promised so, and will employ cheap labour instead.
It all depends I suppose whether we are financial units or professions.
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Arnaud HERVE wrote:
- It is not ok to bid as a translator without the intention to do the work yourself
If "not OK" means unethical, then I agree, to the extent that it is the client's expectation/understanding that you will do the work yourself, and/or you are a member of a professional body that has a code of conduct on this matter, or indeed you have signed an agreement/contract to this effect.
- It is not ok to call a colleague for help without telling him/her you are going to make a profit of it
Disagree. If I am helping a colleague it is no concern of mine how the rate I charge them relates to the rate they are charging someone else for my work. If it is higher... well, they basically found work for me to do while I was in the garden/pub/earning money elsewhere, so it's fine by me. It is not beyond possibility that they are using me in a rush and I am actually more expensive than the rate they are charging, but I am helping them to keep the client.
If we are going to be open in your dreamland, let's be open all the time. Do you want to know if you are working in this second hypothetical situation? If you did know, would you then charge less?
And I can also add that it is not ok to escape taxes, because it is not so common to declare to your fiscal authorities the profit that you hid from both your client and your sub-contractor.
Absolutely agree with the first point. Since you quoted me at the top of the post and appear to be responding to me, I should like to add that at no point did I even hint that I might even consider that it was "ok".
How other people deal with their tax affairs is between them and their tax authorities, but speaking as someone who has occasionally outsourced (I hate it, you should try it; it is very time-consuming and stressful - another valid reason to earn a reasonable revenue from it) with the client's permission and yes, earning a small slice of the pie for all the reasons given so far, I did indeed declare it to the tax authorities in full.
But that is just me, of course
I find your assertion that the majority of people who indulge in small-scale outsourcing are bound to be also indulging in tax evasion something of a wild supposition. I'd like to know the basis on which you make it. Please answer without referring to proz profiles, which carry no legal force whatsoever.*
I have no problem about companies outsourcing.
I'm sure they are all relieved to hear it.
It's about professionals that I am wondering. I wonder what I would think if I discovered the lawyer or the doctor I had an appointment with will not do the job him/herself whereas s/he promised so, and will employ cheap labour instead.
That would be illegal, in most countries, I think. Those are professions with strictly policed barriers to entry, and severe penalties for pretending to be something you are not, and rightly so.
Please don't fall into the common trap of comparing translation with businesses and professions with which it bears little or no relation. If you want to discuss translation practices, fine. Otherwise, visit DoctorZ.com or LawyerZ.com
Edit to clear up spurious text, and to add that I have actually thought of a reason relating to the "*" that could apply to some self-employed people in the UK, but since your original post was based on the legal situation in France but, now you know that this is not a universal rule, seems to have drifted into vague "it just ain't right" territory, I don't think you will find it of huge benefit to your "argument".
[Edited at 2009-06-23 23:07 GMT]
| | | | | France is irrelevant here | Jun 23, 2009 |
ProZ is not AFAIK subject to French law nor is there any reason why principles from that system should be applied. I find the presumption that an outsourcer would in most cases be evading taxes to be foolish and... well, presumptuous.
All that concerns me at any point and the only legitimate concern for any party in a business transaction is whether the terms of the contract are kept. Nothing else. The idea that an outsourcing colleague must not make or should declare to me any inte... See more ProZ is not AFAIK subject to French law nor is there any reason why principles from that system should be applied. I find the presumption that an outsourcer would in most cases be evading taxes to be foolish and... well, presumptuous.
All that concerns me at any point and the only legitimate concern for any party in a business transaction is whether the terms of the contract are kept. Nothing else. The idea that an outsourcing colleague must not make or should declare to me any intention to profit from my labor seems extremely daft. That person would be foolish not to mark up the work, because outsourcing does in deed involve a lot of effort and often stress if it is done right. That is why I avoid it even under favorable circumstances.
I also have no problem with competent brokers, and I really don't care how they represent themselves on ProZ. It's up to them to comply with whatever domestic laws they are subject to. And comply with the terms of agreement and pay on time. Anything beyond that is busybody nonsense. ▲ Collapse
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| Profit is not a dirty word | Jun 24, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
There are also universal good practices :
- It is not ok to call a colleague for help without telling him/her you are going to make a profit of it
[/quote]
These are not "universal good practices": this is just your opinion. You are entitled to it, but others are entitled to disagree.
Just supposing:
Translator A quotes to a prospect $ 0.50 / word to translate 10,000 words of technical documentation from Inuit into Klingon. The customer accepts and gives the go ahead to the project, sending a purchase order which specifies that 10,000 words needs to be translated from Inuit into accurate and fluent Klingon.
Translator A is now ethically bound to deliver 10,000 words translated into correct and idiomatic Klingon to the customer. Unless the customer actually demanded in the purchase order that translator A should personally translate these words, translator A is not ethically obliged to do so personally.
Translator A also knows that translator B is an excellent Inuit to Klingon translator. She also knows that translator B's rates for Inuit into Klingon are normally $ 0.30/word. She asks translator B to translate 10,000 words, for $ 0.30 / word. Translator B accepts.
Translator A is now ethically bound to pay to translator B the agreed rate (whether or not the end client pays translator A). She has no obligation to disclose to translator B the rate she herself is going to receive from the end client, nor is she ethically bound to disclose to the end client that she has in fact outsourced the work, or at what rate.
The $ 0.20 / word profit is the just payment to translator A for a) whatever she did in order to win the contract (maybe the time she spent on a more polished bid), and b) whatever work she has to do to ensure that the translation received from translator B is in fact up to the quality standards agreed with the end customer (i.e., whatever editing, proofreading, QA or other tasks she may have to do).
Unless translator A misrepresents what she is going to do to the end customer (e.g. "I'm going to personally translate every single word of this text for you", instead of "I'm going to ensure that you receive a translation of excellent quality"), or unless she deceives translator B (e.g. "I know that your rate is normally $0.30/word, but couldn't you lower it to $ 0.20/word for a colleague? I'm not going to make any profit on this, in fact my customer is only going to pay me $ 0.19/word, but I want to keep him happy"), she is ethically entitled to her profit.
From your posts, I understand that this might be contrary to French law. If Translator A is based in France, she should of course conform to the local law, and doing otherwise would be unethical.
But please do not confuse the quirks of your local legislation for universal ethical good practices.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 23:20
French to German
+ ...
| Legality vs. morality | Jun 24, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: This is just a venue, there are people here not even using their real names, or any kind of name, eh, Mr Caledonian Feral Feline (Just kidding, I know you make no secret of your real name, but others keep it well hidden).
[OT] Just a detail: it's not feral, but wild, the scientific name being Felis sylvestris grampia.[/OT]
I think that what we have here is a typical case of legality vs. morality... Which could become the subject of another discussion, together with the fact that profiles are (at it seems) not subject to checks from the side of ProZ, etc. - or why some people, given the freedom they have, would use it to misrepresent themselves. There were other cases in a recent past, including the one of an entity who used a third party's CV to complete their own profile.
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-06-24 05:14 GMT]
| | | | | YOUR idea of good practices | Jun 24, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
There are also universal good practices :
??? Sorry Arnaud. This is your assessment of what are good practices. You are entitled to this opinion, but I think it is absolutely wrong. If you wish, I can give you my own list of good practices (the first practice being that people should be honest and should assume good faith in others instead of making their mind sick with ideas of corruption and conspiracy theories).
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
- It is not ok to bid as a translator without the intention to do the work yourself
Hm... Shouldn't we tell agencies about this? Maybe they are running an unlawful business and they should hire translators in a dozen languages as part of their personnel!
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
And I can also add that it is not ok to escape taxes, because it is not so common to declare to your fiscal authorities the profit that you hid from both your client and your sub-contractor.
Are you saying that all people who make a profit are criminals?
All in all Arnaud, correct me if I am wrong, to me it looks like you don't favour the idea of profit in general. But I don't blame you: there is a whole part of our Western society longing for a soviet economy, strict regulations for everything, and punishment for those who make a profit... while they enjoy the luxury and freedom of choice only a for-profit, free economy can provide.
It is somewhat funny: I have seen SO MANY people passionately call for a fair, low-profit, honest society... and when they have a chance to make profit on others they are the worst kind of unfair, high-profit, tax-evading employers!!!
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