| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Will you contact the final client? Thread poster: sjmdcl (X)
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
sjmdcl wrote:
The nature of the products of Company is very sensitive and people's life may have at risk. Will you contact Agency A to tell them about? Will you contact the Company? What about Translator's Ethics?
Only if I were 100% sure of having complete mastery of the target language and that there were no errors of any kind in my translation. Even then I would be reluctant to do so.
| | | | Anders O. 
Norway
Local time: 02:05
English to Norwegian
+ ...
| My two cents | Jan 16, 2016 |
A renowned technology Company that sells products worth of hundred if not millions of USD needs to translate user's manuals and other critical documents.
This Company sends work to Agency A located in Europe.
Agency A sends work to Agency B located in America.
Agency B sends work to a freelance translator located in a third-world country at extreme bad conditions (high volume of work, tight turnaround and extreme low rates).
Proves how rotten this industry can be. "We are specialists when it comes to *insert language combination here*" - passes job on to cheaper agency, whom hires a freelancer at dreadful rates.
Maybe sites like ProZ should advertise towards companies and have them go directly to the translator?
I have nothing against agencies in theory, I have worked for some who pay decent and are good to work with. But the actual agency should consist of actual translators who do the work, and not just consist of a bunch of paper pushers who outsource every job they receive.
I digress. Unless you have a written contract that says you can't contact them, you can do whatever you want. It proves that you care about the quality of the product - and in this case, the lives of others. Lives are far more important than some agency's terms and conditions. Period.
[Edited at 2016-01-16 13:56 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:05
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Not that cut-and-dried, unfortunately | Jan 16, 2016 |
Anders O. wrote:
Lives are far more important than some agency's terms and conditions. Period.
Who would disagree with that? Sociopaths aside, all people faced with a choice of saving somebody from death on the one hand, or saving some agency's T&C's on the other would choose to save the person.
Unfortunately, in real life the choices with which people are presented are seldom so black and white. As far as I can gather, even the original poster is only claiming that people's lives may be at risk.
In what way? How? Can he or she give concrete examples of people who have died due to poor translations of the kind he mentions? Because if he were to take action, that's what he would be asked to provide.
And if he were unable to back up his assertions, he could reasonably expect a very unpleasant and damaging legal backlash. Have a google for Betsy Benjaminson's experience with Toyota to see what can happen to whistleblowers.
Remember the old saying: no good deed shall go unpunished.
Regards
Dan
| | | | Anders O.
Norway
Local time: 02:05
English to Norwegian
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote:
In what way? How? Can he or she give concrete examples of people who have died due to poor translations of the kind he mentions? Because if he were to take action, that's what he would be asked to provide.
Dan
Good questions. Since it is a techical company, I assume it has something to do with a warning label regarding the usage of e.g. power tools. If used incorrectly, by the wrong people, they can be very lethal indeed.
[Edited at 2016-01-16 15:40 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 20:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Profile of original poster removed | Jan 16, 2016 |
I find it curious that the profile of the person initiating this thread (which has obviously generated a good deal of discussion) has been removed.
| | | | Anders O.
Norway
Local time: 02:05
English to Norwegian
+ ...
Robert Forstag wrote:
I find it curious that the profile of the person initiating this thread (which has obviously generated a good deal of discussion) has been removed.
Illuminati confirmed
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:05
Serbian to English
+ ...
| never mind where the thread initiator is gone | Jan 17, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: sjmdcl wrote:
Agency B sends work to a freelance translator located in a third-world country at extreme bad conditions (high volume of work, tight turnaround and extreme low rates). Your relationship is with Agency B only. .... Nevertheless, if you want to act professionally you should: - Do your very best to deliver the maximum quality in your part of the work; the fact that you are paid very little or are required to work with very tight deadlines is irrelevant, since you already knew that when you committed yourself to the project. - Never contact Agency A or the end customer. If you did so, you would be violating a key obligation of our profession: privacy. In doing so, you would be considered as extremely unprofessional by Agency B, but also by Agency A, the end customer, and your colleagues. You would also harm the good name of the profession as a whole. ...
Well, "stick to doing as told" is not exactly the same as "being professional"
"Do your very best to deliver the maximum quality" IS professional
"the fact that you are paid very little or are required to work with very tight deadlines is irrelevant" NO it's VERY RELEVANT to "being professional" as there are no ways you can deliver quality in the long run under these conditions - simples
"Never contact Agency A or the end customer" (IOW stick to "obeying orders"? ahem, better not start THAT topic ...)
How do you propose to be "professional/do your best" is you don't have any possible contact with the authors of the ST if you need some background information or explanations? Resort to playing Chinese whispers with all the middlemen involved? Good luck with that!
Not to speak of other possible situations, like the agency being in the habit of not paying? Just let them get away with it?
Of course, contacting the final client is not to be done lightly, but there may be situations where it is necessary IF you want to be "professional" or to protect your own profession (FYI, no one else will, if you don't give them the right example).
The best/worst bit:
"you would be violating a key obligation of our profession: privacy" - NO and NO - one of the key obligation of a translator is confidentiality towards the person who effectively needs the translation/the end client (anyway, there is no "privacy" for corporations). Any obligations towards the middlemen have nothing to do with translating itself, but with general commercial laws - same obligations as anyone would have when working with any kind of agent, and depend on the specifics of each contract.
The distinction is clearer when it comes to interpreting - interpreter's professional obligation of confidentiality as interpreter exists towards the client - the one who needs an interpreter. What was said at the meeting (or even the fact that there was a meeting) is no one's business except the participants' - and the "no one else" includes the recruiting agent.
Don't confuse protecting commercial interests of the middlemen with the linguist's professional code of conduct in relation to the commissioner of the translation (quality of work/confidentiality etc.).
| | | | | To me, it is part of the deal | Jan 17, 2016 |
Daryo wrote:
Don't confuse protecting commercial interests of the middlemen with the linguist's professional code of conduct in relation to the commissioner of the translation (quality of work/confidentiality etc.).
In terms of respecting privacy/confidentiality of my customers, of course I might have my own views about what part of the relationship is confidential and what part is not. However, if they say that everything is confidential for them and I accept that in writing as part of the business relationship, from that moment on my own views are irrelevant (I know you like this word...) and all that is left for me to do is to perform according to my obligations. Where would our world go without a firm belief in commitment in general?
Daryo wrote: Tomás wrote:
"the fact that you are paid very little or are required to work with very tight deadlines is irrelevant" NO it's VERY RELEVANT to "being professional" as there are no ways you can deliver quality in the long run under these conditions - simples
Well, if a translator has accepted a ridiculous payment and very tight deadlines, it was his/her prerogative. Nobody forced him/her into a bad working relationship, but if the translator commited to it, then the low pay and tight deadlines become irrelevant in the discussion of whether the translator may violate his/her obligations under the contract. If the translator decides that he/she cannot continue doing the work for whatever the reason, he/she should certainly stop working in the project.
Daryo wrote:
Not to speak of other possible situations, like the agency being in the habit of not paying? Just let them get away with it?
Never! Agencies always have to pay for work delivered according to the agreed conditions. In case of lack of payment, we have legal means of collecting our money without, in turn, violating our commitments ourselves.
Let me ask you this: if you owned a company and made every new employee sign a confidentiality agreement, would you include a term waiving the employee's confidentiality obligation in case of late payment of the salary or worsening of the working conditions? I am pretty sure the confidentiality agreement would not be linked to the working conditions or payment, and you would expect employees to pursue payment via a court or the labour authorities in your country. If you agree that this is what you would expect, why should it be any different with indepent work done under a confidentiality agreement?
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| Contacting the client is not necessarily betraying confidentiality - and may be the opposite | Jan 17, 2016 |
I have once or twice been told expressly not to post queries about a particular assignment on KudoZ or in any way consult colleagues if I had problems with it.
My response was that in that case I would contact the client.
On other occasions I have asked the agency about a propblem and actually been referred to the end client. When I worked in-house, that was always the first line of enquiry.
By approaching the agency and/or the end client, you are NOT breaching co... See more I have once or twice been told expressly not to post queries about a particular assignment on KudoZ or in any way consult colleagues if I had problems with it.
My response was that in that case I would contact the client.
On other occasions I have asked the agency about a propblem and actually been referred to the end client. When I worked in-house, that was always the first line of enquiry.
By approaching the agency and/or the end client, you are NOT breaching confidentiality. You are exercising due diligence in making sure you understand the source and translate it correctly.
Confidentiality is breached when you pass on information to third parties.
KudoZ questions have to be carefully phrased for that reason. However, most of them do not reveal which client you are working for - the issues are general and could appear in dozens of situations. It would be quite paranoid to bother the client every time.
To get back to the question of life and death - I would contact the agency first. As others have mentioned, I would ensure that I was covered so that I could only be criticised for errors in my own work, and not generally held responsible for sections over which I had no control.
In general, I dislike criticising other people's work. I would have to be absolutely certain of my case, and able to give specific examples of what I meant. With any of the agencies I actually work with, I would feel the matter was safe in their hands - I know they have work checked and proofread before delivering it to end clients.
However, if I really thought it was a life-and death issue, and did not trust the agency, I might contact the end client and tell them to have the whole project carefully proofread and edited/retranslated. I would make it clear, however, that I was a subcontractor for the agency, and NOT offering to take over the assignment.
______________________
A major reason agencies do not want translators to contact end clients is to prevent translators from poaching clients - i.e. working directly for them and cutting out the agency. This is a valid consideration, and a matter of professional ethics that a translator should never poach clients in that way.
Many contracts with agencies contain a clause that translators who work for them must not work for the agency's clients within two years or some other period after the translator has stopped working for the agency.
This is completely different from loyally consulting the client about how a specific text is to be translated.
If I felt it would only result in 'a game of Chinese whispers' to go through the agency, then yes, I would under certain circumstances contact the end client, telling the agency I was doing so. (Possibly timing it so that they could not stop me.) I would also tell the end client I was working as a subcontractor for the agency on their job, and reassure them that I respected the need for confidentiality. That is, after all, why you go directly to the person concerned, and involve as few others as possible.
The agency can only sue the translator for actually causing damage to the agency's business. As long as you are in fact promoting their business and acting professionally, the worst they can do is refuse to work with you in future. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 20:05
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| What on Earth did you mean by this? | Jan 17, 2016 |
xxxsjmdcl wrote:
I think Client would be happy to know that their documents are being sent to a third-world "translation sweatshop" and wrongly translated.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:05
Serbian to English
+ ...
| exactly - do not confuse confidentiality as linguist with other elements | Jan 17, 2016 |
of the contract!
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have once or twice been told expressly not to post queries about a particular assignment on KudoZ or in any way consult colleagues if I had problems with it.
My response was that in that case I would contact the client.
....
The agency can only sue the translator for actually causing damage to the agency's business. As long as you are in fact promoting their business and acting professionally, the worst they can do is refuse to work with you in future.
I didn't want to make my post too long, otherwise I would have added more or less the same ... Entirely agree with you!
@ Tomás Cano Binder, CT
"... from that moment on my own views are irrelevant (I know you like this word...) ..."
yes, "irrelevant" happens to be very often a very relevant word - [couldn't resist the pun]
As for the rest of your post, you are partly extrapolating what I said into something I didn't.
| | | | | Please explain | Jan 17, 2016 |
Daryo wrote:
@ Tomás Cano Binder, CT
...
As for the rest of your post, you are partly extrapolating what I said into something I didn't.
I see! Please elaborate (and answer my last question, please indulge me).
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 01:05
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Daryo wrote:
"the fact that you are paid very little or are required to work with very tight deadlines is irrelevant" NO it's VERY RELEVANT to "being professional" as there are no ways you can deliver quality in the long run under these conditions - simples
I agree totally that accepting sweatshop rates is no way to go if you want to be considered a professional by either your peers or potential clients, and that quality is bound to suffer in the end. However, we're both talking of the long run. It's perfectly possible for a translator to deliver his/her very best work under pressure, particularly if s/he doesn't feel particularly exploited at that time. How many times have you read here: "I've been working for €0.05 for the last few years and now I find that it's a rather low rate. Am I being exploited?" Clearly they've been giving their best work. Once bitterness and/or desperation sets in - as is likely to happen in the end - then yes, "being professional" is impossible.
"Never contact Agency A or the end customer" (IOW stick to "obeying orders"? ahem, better not start THAT topic ...)
How do you propose to be "professional/do your best" is you don't have any possible contact with the authors of the ST if you need some background information or explanations? Resort to playing Chinese whispers with all the middlemen involved? Good luck with that!
Isn't that exactly what agencies are supposed to be there for? Brokers who like to call themselves agencies are a total waste of space, but proper agencies provide communication channels. Have you ever contacted the end client just for information about the source text, Daryo? Does anyone do that? I'm talking about the translator taking the initiative, not those instances where the agency and the end client together decide that it would be for the best. In my case, it most often happens that I write my query, send it to the agency, and it's passed on verbatim to the end client. I receive the answer in the same way. I almost always know the company name, and I quite often know the writer's name, but I've never contacted them directly, nor do I intend to unless invited.
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