Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
appartenance (territoriale)
English translation:
territorial appurtenance
Added to glossary by
Daryo
Jun 3, 2020 11:15
3 yrs ago
43 viewers *
French term
appartenance (territoriale)
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
This is a legal opinion by an expert jurist concerning a bilateral agreement for protection of investments (TBI) between one country and another. A dispute has since arisen concerning the status of a part ("AAA") of one of these countries. The Tribunal is an arbitration tribunal.
"le territoire de AAA est aujourd’hui, comme il l’était au moment des violations alléguées du TBI par BBB [an investment company] au cours de la procédure arbitrale, un territoire dont l’appartenance à un des Etats partie est envisagée de manière fondamentalement divergente par les Parties elles-mêmes."
"I. L’inapplicabilité du TBI à raison de la divergence de vue sur l’appartenance territoriale de AAA"
"L’exigence d’une convergence de vue relativement à l’appartenance territoriale (A.) impose de faire le constat d’une inapplicabilité du TBI relativement à AAA où cette condition n’est plus satisfaite (B.)."
"L’exigence d’une convergence de vue relativement à l’appartenance territoriale"
"Cette distribution de l’espace est mutuellement convenue. Le TBI ne détermine évidemment pas la délimitation territoriale entre les Etats qui y adhèrent mais il établit expressément, en revanche, que l’espace d’application du Traité ne concerne que des zones dont l’appartenance est mutuellement reconnue par les Parties."
"En effet, si le Tribunal a le pouvoir de déterminer la position de l’investissement dans une aire géographique, il n’a pas le pouvoir de déterminer l’appartenance de cette aire géographique à l’une des Parties contractantes."
"La situation de revendication mutuelle d’un territoire exclut que cette zone puisse être regardée en commun par les Etats parties comme soumise à une appartenance exclusive, condition mise à l’applicabilité des normes conventionnelles dans ce cas."
(it occurs more often than this).
I thought likely candidates might be "affiliation", "possession" or maybe "attachment". Possibly there's a quite specific and precise EN legal phrase ("possession territoriale" is good enough French: why not use it?).
"le territoire de AAA est aujourd’hui, comme il l’était au moment des violations alléguées du TBI par BBB [an investment company] au cours de la procédure arbitrale, un territoire dont l’appartenance à un des Etats partie est envisagée de manière fondamentalement divergente par les Parties elles-mêmes."
"I. L’inapplicabilité du TBI à raison de la divergence de vue sur l’appartenance territoriale de AAA"
"L’exigence d’une convergence de vue relativement à l’appartenance territoriale (A.) impose de faire le constat d’une inapplicabilité du TBI relativement à AAA où cette condition n’est plus satisfaite (B.)."
"L’exigence d’une convergence de vue relativement à l’appartenance territoriale"
"Cette distribution de l’espace est mutuellement convenue. Le TBI ne détermine évidemment pas la délimitation territoriale entre les Etats qui y adhèrent mais il établit expressément, en revanche, que l’espace d’application du Traité ne concerne que des zones dont l’appartenance est mutuellement reconnue par les Parties."
"En effet, si le Tribunal a le pouvoir de déterminer la position de l’investissement dans une aire géographique, il n’a pas le pouvoir de déterminer l’appartenance de cette aire géographique à l’une des Parties contractantes."
"La situation de revendication mutuelle d’un territoire exclut que cette zone puisse être regardée en commun par les Etats parties comme soumise à une appartenance exclusive, condition mise à l’applicabilité des normes conventionnelles dans ce cas."
(it occurs more often than this).
I thought likely candidates might be "affiliation", "possession" or maybe "attachment". Possibly there's a quite specific and precise EN legal phrase ("possession territoriale" is good enough French: why not use it?).
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Jun 21, 2020 23:01: Daryo Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+1
5 days
Selected
territorial appurtenance
La Cour internationale de Justice / The International Court of Justice
case CR 2002/29
Sovereignty over Pulau Ligitan and Pulau Sipadan (Indonesia/Malaysia)
page 17:
in fact, according to Malaysia itself (see Memorial of Malaysia, p. 65, para. 6.9; see also Reply of Malaysia, p. 70, para. 5.14), this was Bajau Laut (Nos. 18, 21, 22, 23, 25, 32 and 45), whose links with the Sultanate of Sulu (as, moreover, with the Sultanates of Boeloengan and Berou) and with the colonial powers do not warrant any definite conclusion on the territorial appurtenance of the areas where they operated as, I repeat, Indonesia has shown in its Counter-Memorial (pp. 19-37, paras. 3.23-3.73), without being contradicted
page 36:
53. Certain maps produced by Malaysia are of Dutch and British origin and date from the beginning of the last century, particularly the nautical maps and the maps prepared by the Netherlands East Indies Topographical Office. They show only the boundaries on the island of Borneo itself. As already noted in our written pleadings (Counter-Memorial, Vol. 1, Map Annex, paras. A.4 and A.5 and Reply, Vol. 1, Map Annex, paras. 4 and 5), the purpose of these maps is to provide technical information and they cannot be reliable sources for possible pointers regarding territorial appurtenance. No attribution of sovereignty is indicated on them and, furthermore, we have no way of knowing in what circumstances they were prepared. They are therefore not of any great help in settling the question put to the Court.
page 39:
1. I showed a few moments ago that the effectivités on which Malaysia relies were not such as to establish any territorial title of that Party to Pulau Ligitan and Pulau Sipadan; in particular, it seems that the collection of turtle eggs on Sipadan, by the Bajau Laut from Danawan among others, had no particular bearing on the island’s appurtenance to one Party or the other
https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/102/102-20020604-...
An official document of The International Court of Justice - dealing with a lot of territorial disputes, part of the United Nations system, French and English being its official languages.
case CR 2002/29
Sovereignty over Pulau Ligitan and Pulau Sipadan (Indonesia/Malaysia)
page 17:
in fact, according to Malaysia itself (see Memorial of Malaysia, p. 65, para. 6.9; see also Reply of Malaysia, p. 70, para. 5.14), this was Bajau Laut (Nos. 18, 21, 22, 23, 25, 32 and 45), whose links with the Sultanate of Sulu (as, moreover, with the Sultanates of Boeloengan and Berou) and with the colonial powers do not warrant any definite conclusion on the territorial appurtenance of the areas where they operated as, I repeat, Indonesia has shown in its Counter-Memorial (pp. 19-37, paras. 3.23-3.73), without being contradicted
page 36:
53. Certain maps produced by Malaysia are of Dutch and British origin and date from the beginning of the last century, particularly the nautical maps and the maps prepared by the Netherlands East Indies Topographical Office. They show only the boundaries on the island of Borneo itself. As already noted in our written pleadings (Counter-Memorial, Vol. 1, Map Annex, paras. A.4 and A.5 and Reply, Vol. 1, Map Annex, paras. 4 and 5), the purpose of these maps is to provide technical information and they cannot be reliable sources for possible pointers regarding territorial appurtenance. No attribution of sovereignty is indicated on them and, furthermore, we have no way of knowing in what circumstances they were prepared. They are therefore not of any great help in settling the question put to the Court.
page 39:
1. I showed a few moments ago that the effectivités on which Malaysia relies were not such as to establish any territorial title of that Party to Pulau Ligitan and Pulau Sipadan; in particular, it seems that the collection of turtle eggs on Sipadan, by the Bajau Laut from Danawan among others, had no particular bearing on the island’s appurtenance to one Party or the other
https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/102/102-20020604-...
An official document of The International Court of Justice - dealing with a lot of territorial disputes, part of the United Nations system, French and English being its official languages.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: why not? Some of us do know what "appurtenance" means
2 hrs
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It's obviously inspired by / derived from the French "appartenance", but so are many other legal terms - and it doesn't make them less valid. Thanks!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Convinced. Thanks."
-1
10 mins
allegiance
Crossing the Neoliberal Line: Pacific Rim Migration and the ...books.google.co.uk › books
... basis of its violation of a "structure of feeling," in Raymond Williams's sense of ... human warmth or sense of territorial allegiance, promoters could uphold it as ...
Katharyne Mitchell - 2004 - Literary Criticism
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Note added at 11 mins (2020-06-03 11:26:21 GMT)
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Identity at the edge of the constitutional community (Chapter 2 ...www.cambridge.org › core › product › core-reader
Sovereignty assumes allegiance by the people in that territory. Allegiance can be understood in various ways, from a personal feeling of attachment, to a formal ...
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Note added at 16 mins (2020-06-03 11:31:33 GMT)
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OR
belonging
Does citizenship always further Immigrants' feeling of ...link.springer.com › article
1 Mar 2017 - Immigrants' access to citizenship in their country of residence is ... experience greater attachment to the host nation (i.e. belonging) from ... states are not so much acting to protect their territorial borders; rather ... The ISSP also contains information about the birth country of the respondent's mother, but as ...
by KB Simonsen - 2017 - Cited by 18 - Related articles
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Note added at 17 mins (2020-06-03 11:33:03 GMT)
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L'Union européenne et le sentiment d'appartenance ... - Éruditwww.erudit.org › euro › 2017-v12-n1-euro03056
8 May 2017 - Volume 12, Number 1, 2017 L'Union européenne et le sentiment d'appartenance The European Union and the Sense of Belonging Die ...
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Note added at 18 mins (2020-06-03 11:33:21 GMT)
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OK, I take your point
... basis of its violation of a "structure of feeling," in Raymond Williams's sense of ... human warmth or sense of territorial allegiance, promoters could uphold it as ...
Katharyne Mitchell - 2004 - Literary Criticism
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Note added at 11 mins (2020-06-03 11:26:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Identity at the edge of the constitutional community (Chapter 2 ...www.cambridge.org › core › product › core-reader
Sovereignty assumes allegiance by the people in that territory. Allegiance can be understood in various ways, from a personal feeling of attachment, to a formal ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2020-06-03 11:31:33 GMT)
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OR
belonging
Does citizenship always further Immigrants' feeling of ...link.springer.com › article
1 Mar 2017 - Immigrants' access to citizenship in their country of residence is ... experience greater attachment to the host nation (i.e. belonging) from ... states are not so much acting to protect their territorial borders; rather ... The ISSP also contains information about the birth country of the respondent's mother, but as ...
by KB Simonsen - 2017 - Cited by 18 - Related articles
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2020-06-03 11:33:03 GMT)
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L'Union européenne et le sentiment d'appartenance ... - Éruditwww.erudit.org › euro › 2017-v12-n1-euro03056
8 May 2017 - Volume 12, Number 1, 2017 L'Union européenne et le sentiment d'appartenance The European Union and the Sense of Belonging Die ...
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Note added at 18 mins (2020-06-03 11:33:21 GMT)
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OK, I take your point
Note from asker:
| Thanks. I'm a little sceptical because this concerns a legal relationship between a geographical area and the State which controls it. It is not about how the people living there may or may not feel about things. |
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Allegiance is a feeling or a statement of commitment, not a legal fact.
1 day 9 hrs
|
+4
58 mins
formal legal territorial relationship
The word "territorial" may be deemed present from context.
Therefore:
Alternative: formal legal relationship.
(Remark: Also understood is the fact that the subject of the relationship is one or more certain zones or areas or territories etc.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-03 12:17:54 GMT)
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)
Therefore:
Alternative: formal legal relationship.
(Remark: Also understood is the fact that the subject of the relationship is one or more certain zones or areas or territories etc.
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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-03 12:17:54 GMT)
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)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
EirTranslations
4 hrs
|
| neutral |
Daryo
: any references showing that this combination of words is really used at all? And to mean what you supposed it should mean? Web searches are not confirming much ...
1 day 2 hrs
|
| agree |
Chris Pr
1 day 6 hrs
|
| neutral |
Eliza Hall
: This seems to be about legal status (what country is AAA part of), as opposed to relationship.
1 day 8 hrs
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I don't object to "status", which is the equivalent of my answer. It may be too late to add "status" to my answer because Adrian MM may claim priority as to it (which would be unfair, but it could happen).
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| agree |
GILLES MEUNIER
2 days 1 hr
|
| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: formal territorial relationship status
5 days
|
+1
1 hr
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
(terriorial/ suzerain) affiliation
à un des Etats: to one of the States.
Amyone voting non-Pro may care to explain the difference between suzerainty and sovereignty because there may be such a non-Tibetan scenario here.
Amyone voting non-Pro may care to explain the difference between suzerainty and sovereignty because there may be such a non-Tibetan scenario here.
Example sentence:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuzeraintyIm Cache Suzerainty differs from true sovereignty in that, though the tributary state or person is technically independent and enjoys self-rule, in practice this self-rule is limited.
territorial affiliation. The national or political integration of a place or administrative unit. Data type
Reference:
http://www.wikiwords.org/dictionary/term/1420166/2806624
http://iate.europa.eu/search/standard/result/1591188852948/1
Note from asker:
| Thank you, m'learned friend, I thought you might come up with the goods. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: the disputed/unrecognised territory is not necessarily anyone's "vassal" [the "suzerain" is the boss ...] nor just "affiliated to ..."- the disputed territory might well be of "equal status" to the rest of the State of which it's currently part of.
1 hr
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My answer had been prefixed for informed debate & discussion with suzerain - not suzerain's - affiliation that can connote a subservient or equal-ranking tributary ('downstream') state: 'A Suzerain state can belong exclusively to the subservient state..
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| neutral |
Thomas Miles
: Without having time to look into the entire question, this certainly looks like a fairly safe solution.
3 hrs
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Thanks - but a sense of 'belonging' might be even safer-
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| agree |
Rocsana Guignaudeau
: Yes, see this: https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/appartena...
7 hrs
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Merci, multumesc and thanks! Affiliation scores a preponderance of entries whilst - interestingly - national allegiance and territorial belonging are also paid lip-service. No sign, though, of any bold 'suzerainty' take-up.
|
1 day 4 hrs
jurisdiction (over the territory)
"l’appartenance" of a geographical area to one State or another boils down to which State has "jurisdiction" over the geographical area, especially as afar as this Treaty is concerned.
In this dispute, that's the bone of contention between the litigants - who has jurisdiction over the contested territory - I very much doubt that the fine points of internal relationship within the State having effective control over the territory are much of their concern.
I would either use simply use "belonging to ..." or reformulate to present is as "diverging views regarding the jurisdiction competent over the territory"
It might sound like quite a departure from "l’appartenance", but it's no more a departure from the ST than other proposed translations - and it definitely IS technically correct.
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Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2020-06-04 15:33:51 GMT)
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... especially as far as ...
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Note added at 1 day 11 hrs (2020-06-04 23:14:24 GMT)
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Special addition for doubting Thomases:
In the United States, a territory is any extent of region under the sovereign jurisdiction of the federal government of the United States,[1] including all waters (around islands or continental tracts) and all U.S. naval vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._territory
N.B. "... of the federal government of the United States" the whole State, not any particular court. IOW if a territory "belongs" to the State X, then this same State X will have "jurisdiction over" that territory, or it could be said that the territory is part of the jurisdiction of the State X.
there is also a narrower meaning, that wouldn't apply here:
Territorial jurisdiction in United States law refers to a court's power over events and persons within the bounds of a particular geographic territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_jurisdiction_(Unit...
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Note added at 3 days 10 hrs (2020-06-06 21:21:36 GMT)
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another example of "jurisdiction" used to mean a territory "under the effective control of one State" (the twin brother of "belonging to a State", if I'm not mistaken ...)
Marine Areas Beyond National Jurisdiction (ABNJ), commonly called the high seas, are those areas of ocean for which no one nation has sole responsibility for management. In all, these make up 40 percent of the surface of our planet, comprising 64 percent of the surface of the oceans and nearly 95 percent of its volume.
https://www.thegef.org/topics/areas-beyond-national-jurisdic...
https://www.thegef.org/topics/areas-beyond-national-jurisdic...
In this dispute, that's the bone of contention between the litigants - who has jurisdiction over the contested territory - I very much doubt that the fine points of internal relationship within the State having effective control over the territory are much of their concern.
I would either use simply use "belonging to ..." or reformulate to present is as "diverging views regarding the jurisdiction competent over the territory"
It might sound like quite a departure from "l’appartenance", but it's no more a departure from the ST than other proposed translations - and it definitely IS technically correct.
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Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2020-06-04 15:33:51 GMT)
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... especially as far as ...
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Note added at 1 day 11 hrs (2020-06-04 23:14:24 GMT)
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Special addition for doubting Thomases:
In the United States, a territory is any extent of region under the sovereign jurisdiction of the federal government of the United States,[1] including all waters (around islands or continental tracts) and all U.S. naval vessels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._territory
N.B. "... of the federal government of the United States" the whole State, not any particular court. IOW if a territory "belongs" to the State X, then this same State X will have "jurisdiction over" that territory, or it could be said that the territory is part of the jurisdiction of the State X.
there is also a narrower meaning, that wouldn't apply here:
Territorial jurisdiction in United States law refers to a court's power over events and persons within the bounds of a particular geographic territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_jurisdiction_(Unit...
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Note added at 3 days 10 hrs (2020-06-06 21:21:36 GMT)
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another example of "jurisdiction" used to mean a territory "under the effective control of one State" (the twin brother of "belonging to a State", if I'm not mistaken ...)
Marine Areas Beyond National Jurisdiction (ABNJ), commonly called the high seas, are those areas of ocean for which no one nation has sole responsibility for management. In all, these make up 40 percent of the surface of our planet, comprising 64 percent of the surface of the oceans and nearly 95 percent of its volume.
https://www.thegef.org/topics/areas-beyond-national-jurisdic...
https://www.thegef.org/topics/areas-beyond-national-jurisdic...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
ph-b (X)
: "boils down to.../doubt that the fine points... are of much concern". Absolutely. Totally agree. As a matter of fact, who needs translators?
9 mins
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Even in official bilingual documents you do get sentences and terms completely reformulated from one language to another - not always each term has its own strict "equivalent"/As you have found the exact term, this is not really needed now. Thanks anyway!
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Just disagreeing because jurisdiction is about courts and legal decisions (juri-), whereas this seems to be about which country AAA is part of (e.g. is Taiwan part of China or not). Territorial division + rephrase, perhaps?
5 hrs
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the way you encounter it most of the time it's about courts, but there is also a wider meaning that includes all the laws AND the territory on which laws of a given State apply. as in "this place/zone is under the jurisdiction of that State or another.."
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Discussion
I wasn't saying that the Dordogne was a possession, but that France might be said to have "territorial possession" of it. But "territorial appurtenance" now looks legit.
You certainly wouldn't say that La Dordogne is "a possession" of France? Or that Scotland is "a possession" of UK?
Regarding "territorial appurtenance" you can find plenty of samples on the Web, many in perfectly good sounding texts. I would think that the sample from The International Court of Justice is pretty convincing. The International Court of Justice being part of the United Nations system, and dealing with lots of territorial disputes, I would expect their translations to be pretty good. (I very much doubt that their translators are chosen on the basis of "best prices" or paid by niggling about "fuzzy matches & repetitions" ...)
I have now looked at many, many dictionaries and have not seen a single endorsement of the idea that this word means "belonging" in modern EN. http://institute.cesci-net.eu/ seems to be a Hungarian institution.
jurisdiction
I quite like this... but there seems to be something not quite "political" enough about it.
possession
Given that appartenance does not seem to be a FR legal term, "possession" may well convey as much as does the FR.
affiliation
I initially thought this might be the right one... but now I'm far from sure. Appartenance seems stronger than this: merely the question of which company "owns/possesses" territory X. Is the Isle of Wight "affiliated" to the UK? No, it is part of the UK; if one bothers to ask the question in the first place, the UK has territorial possession of the Isle of Wight.
Not to forget that the Asker is based in England where "International English or (double shudder) EU English or Continental European English" is so frequently encountered that I doubt that it would be a pretext for any kind of linguistic "Peasant's revolt" OTOH I did notice quite a number of people in UK allergic to US English...
Care to put it as your own answer?
Here is good sample:
The Omnipresence of an Invisible Border in the Greater Geneva Area
Within the Greater Geneva urban space, the border as a line of demarcation between France and Switzerland is invisible most of the time, except for the few border posts that subsist here and there. Near the actual border, it is often difficult to figure out whether one is still in Switzerland or already in France (or viceversa) and only the road signs betray the territorial appurtenance of the places.
http://institute.cesci-net.eu/tiny_mce/uploaded/CBR_Y2018.pd...
In the context of an international arbitration between the UK and Mauritius:
“There is a basic distinction… between the arrangements that are put in place for… the day-to-day administration of a territory, and its territorial appurtenance.”
https://arbitrationlaw.com/sites/default/files/free_pdfs/201... ***
or here:
“…that law itself gave no clear and definite answer to the appurtenance of marginal areas,…”
https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/124/124-20121119-... ***
As for opposing geography and the “feelings of populations” (you mention this point above in the discussion): “The hinterland was based upon a concept of a reasonable territorial appurtenance; Turkey's arguments really relied on personal relationships, which had no necessary connection with territory.”
https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti... ***These*** stand for paragraph tags, which apparently no longer work here.
Also concur about the general nature of this TBI and the lack of need for specific details.
Also, it's quite possible that there is a "model" for this type of conventions - many conventions don't get negotiated from scratch at every go - there are "models" for all sort of conventions - find the right "model" and you'll get a treasure trove of terminology.
BTW, most "models" are in English.
Also, this is a very general clause that could equally apply to ANY territory "belonging" in any kind of way to ANY State => the specific names of the territory and the controlling State are "surplus to requirement" - NOT NEEDED at all.
Also, TBI = BIT = bilateral investment treaty.