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Feb 2, 2019 18:14
5 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

médiatrice

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting Modern art
This is from a text talking about an art exhibition and the kind of pieces that the different types of artists will be creating.

"Les designers, architectes et urbanistes développent d’autres pratiques textuelles, expérimentales, anthropologiques, médiatrices, filmiques, numériques in situ ou en laboratoire"

I feel like it's something to do with media but I can't find any definition of this kind to back it up.
Proposed translations (English)
4 media-based [practice]
4 +2 [of] cultural mediation

Discussion

Eliza Hall Feb 5, 2019:
@ Helen and David David, I agree. Helen, you're right: (1) anyone can make a glossary entry (hence my warning not to make an incorrect one), and (2) no one here thinks "médiatrice" means media-based.

I'll just sign off with a few quotes showing "pratique médiatrice" in context:

"Frampton veut voir dans le régionalisme critique une pratique médiatrice « grâce à laquelle une culture locale de l’architecture se développe avec la conscience d’exprimer une opposition à la domination d’une puissance hégémonique »..." https://www.metropolitiques.eu/L-architecture-du-regionalism...

"...la critique architecturale... de Bekaert apparaît comme une « source inépuisable » de réflexion sur le rôle et sur les opportunités de la critique architecruale en tant que pratique médiatrice..." http://www.academia.edu/17049969/Dans_l_Ombre_de_l_Histoire_...

"A mesure que l'intertextualite est devenue une modalite de lecture... 'la mise en relation', caracteristique du comparatisme en tant que pratique mediatrice, devient indispensable comme instrument de lecture..." La Littérature Comparée Vol. II p. 269 (Lisa Block de Behar, ed.) www.analisis.edu.uy/_media/materiales:comparative_literatur...
Helen Shiner Feb 5, 2019:
@ Eliza Anyone can make the glossary entry. Also, I don't think anyone here has suggested that médiatrice means media-based. There are many occasions on Kudoz where a typo is the issue. And I can certainly say the same for many high-quality texts produced by my museum clients. It happens. And the OP presumably thinks or knows that this is what has happened here.
Eliza Hall Feb 5, 2019:
Glossary entry - do not use this For the record, "media-based" is not a translation of "médiatrice." That isn't what "médiatrice" means, at all. As the OP said in her original question, she thought it, quote, was "something to do with media but [couldn't] find any definition... to back it up." The reason she couldn't find a definition to back that up is because that isn't what "médiatrice" means.

Some commenters here thought that the original French contained a typo and should have said "médiatique" (which can be correctly translated as "media-based"). Someone also suggested that it wasn't a typo but just a misused word, and the original French writer should have said "médiatique." The OP seems to have agreed.

Personally I doubt that a typo would result in a real word that happens to be the correct gender and number to modify the French noun, and I also doubt that something written for the French national contribution to an international design conference would be written by someone who didn't know the difference between "médiatique" and "médiatrice."

We don't all agree on that, and reasonable minds can disagree. But they cannot disagree on the basic fact that "médiatrice" doesn't mean "media-based."
Yolanda Broad Feb 5, 2019:
No glossary entry has been made, yet. Glossary entries are a separate from selection by the Asker of the answer the Asker deems most helpful.
Ben Gaia Feb 4, 2019:
Is the glossary entry wrong now? If this is indeed a typo of "médiatiques' then surely the glossary entry should have that as the French word rather than "médiatrices" which means something else? Otherwise the glossary is misleading.
Helen Shiner Feb 4, 2019:
@ David Another misrepresentation of what I said. I shan't be replying to anything you say from now on.
David Vaughn Feb 4, 2019:
"pratiques médiatrices" "The trouble is that we simply don't know what the author means by "pratiques médiatrices"."

I don't find the term to be particularly mysterious – not more so than some of the other terms in the same list.

But it is already helpful that you have framed the real question, concerning "pratiques médiatrices", which is quite different than suggesting the author has spoken of "mediatory design".

I'll also point out that the sentence says "d'autres pratiques", which already defines the terms that follow as contrasting.
David Vaughn Feb 4, 2019:
@Helen I don't see the sarcasm in my statements. Perhaps you could accuse me of stating the obvious, but sometimes experts miss the obvious. You've already repeatedly told us that no one could possibly write this text, because it doesn't make sense to you. But it does make sense to me and other French readers.
Charles Davis Feb 4, 2019:
It may or may not have some connection with the meaning of the text. The trouble is that we simply don't know what the author means by "pratiques médiatrices".
Charles Davis Feb 4, 2019:
True However, several instances of "mediatory practices" can be found in texts related to design. I am not confident enough that it would be suitable to suggest it, but I wouldn't rule it out.
David Vaughn Feb 4, 2019:
"mediatory design" "I have to ask what mediatory design might be (there are only two hits that don’t date from the 1820s!)"

Perhaps a clue that "mediatory design" would not be a useful translation, even if it had some connection with the meaning of the text (which doesn't seem to be the case)?
Helen Shiner Feb 4, 2019:
@ David Your sarcasm does not become you. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. Getting very obvious and boring now.
David Vaughn Feb 4, 2019:
Clumsy It is not the job of a French author to write a sentence that translates easily into English.

If translation was direct, Google would take care of it all.

The sentence is not clumsy, but it does sound and read well. It is true it is difficult to do as well in English.

Maybe that's why they hired a translator?
Helen Shiner Feb 4, 2019:
Clumsy Speaking as an art historian, I consider the sentence clumsy because it is trying to pack in too many ideas. Speaking as a translator, how often do we meet sentences that need unpacking, because to translate them as they are leads to ugly, confusing English, too?
Ph_B (X) Feb 4, 2019:
@Helen Not sure what you mean by "greater overview of the document being translated", but the link to the text was given at 11.01 yesterday (3rd February). I'll repeat it here in case yesterday's information did not reach your computer: https://www.if.institutfrancais.com/fr/triennale-de-design-d... You will also find a link to the actual PDF document. May I just add as a native speaker that 1) the sentence is not clumsy and that its style is in fact typical of that kind of text (I don't translate them but certainly read them on a regular basis) and that 2) the first thing that came to mind when I read médiatrices was either the meaning of "transferring/carrying across a meaning" or "building bridges" (to be refined by native speakers of English who specialize in art). I do not understand this word as having anything to do with the media (except for its etymology and though they can play a similar part). Now I do not know what the author actually meant to say but my gut feeling is that she has an excellent knowledge of French, knows art and chose this word on purpose and not by mistake. But since mistakes are always possible, it would indeed be safer to check with the client.
Helen Shiner Feb 4, 2019:
@ Charles Thanks for posting the extra context (doing the work of our frustratingly silent Asker). I agree with much of what you say. However, checking on Google and applying my own long years of knowledge in this field, I have to ask what mediatory design might be (there are only two hits that don’t date from the 1820s!). On the other hand, media-based design is absolutely a very current thing with many, many hits. So, I’m leaving this debate until the Asker finally shows some sign of life and takes responsibility for aiding this discussion.
Charles Davis Feb 4, 2019:
III I generally take the line that if it makes sense as written one should not assume a typo. If the author intended to write "médiatrices" and knew what it meant, I'm not at all sure that she was referring to cultural mediation, and I would not include the word "cultural".
Charles Davis Feb 4, 2019:
II "La recherche en design, qui aborde les projets complexes traitant de questions écologiques et humaines, a besoin de différents temps opératoires pour penser les transformations à venir. [...] Les designers, architectes et urbanistes qui élaborent ces pistes de travail développent d’autres pratiques : elles deviennent textuelles, expérimentales, anthropologiques, médiatrices, filmiques, numériques, elles peuvent se déployer in situ ou en laboratoire."
https://www.bureaujigsaw.com/fr/projet/institut-francais

It should be emphasised that this whole thing is about design, not art. To me this makes it less likely that it should read "médiatique"; media-based art is one thing but "media-based design" is another. Mediation in design is not a wholly implausible concept:

"I propose that technological mediation, construed here as the mode of agency distribution among users, technologies, and their designers, provides a productive viewpoint from which to analyze and critique techno-centric proposals of design for user empowerment."
https://architecture.mit.edu/publication/who-designs-–-techn...
Charles Davis Feb 4, 2019:
I think that if this were my translation I would put "mediatory", with a query for the client, and move on.

It could be an error for "médiatique", either a typo (writing one word when you intended to write another) or a misuse of the word (the writer thought that "médiatrice" meant "médiatique"). Those of us who translate texts by curators regularly have to deal with incompetent writing, and even when texts are proof-read, typos do slip through. But as ph-b has said, it seems a bit unlikely in this case, the French section in an international Triennale, where great care would surely have been taken to get it right. And having read the whole text online at the Institut Français website, I don't find it badly written. There is also a different version, signed by the curator (Catherine Geel), which uses the same term:

(Continued in next post)
Helen Shiner Feb 3, 2019:
@ David Also not correct, David. Maybe stop trying to ascribe intent to me? It’s not working.
David Vaughn Feb 3, 2019:
@ Helen Yes, I realise that is not what you find clumsy. I think your feeling of clumsiness comes from you insisting on trying to give it a meaning that it does not have.
Helen Shiner Feb 3, 2019:
@ David For me, that is not where the clumsiness lies.
David Vaughn Feb 3, 2019:
clumsy I see the sentence as rather open-ended and vague. But I wouldn't call that clumsy. An English ear might not immediately grasp that "in situ ou en laboratoire" refers to the entire list, but I don't think that happens with a French ear.
David Vaughn Feb 3, 2019:
Interactive It certainly is not talking about "interactive" art. Even though mediation is an interactive process, it is not interactive art, which implies a more direct action by the public upon the art work. That is not what mediation is about.
Helen Shiner Feb 3, 2019:
Clumsy sentence Whatever this sentence is trying to say, I think it is expressed in a very clumsy fashion. This may be part of the reason that we are even having this discussion. It would help if Emily came back to this question and contributed more context or a greater overview of the document being translated. Otherwise, things just go round in circles.
Eliza Hall Feb 3, 2019:
PS and @ Helen Shiner: Cultural mediation Helen, re your comment on my "disagree," if this text were just about art then yes, they could've said interactive art, but it's broader than that. It includes architecture and urban planning. "Interactive architecture" is not a thing (wow that would be interesting though! Haha).

Given this broad context, "interactive" isn't the English word we want. The term I've seen used is "cultural mediation":

"Cultural mediation is the process of building bridges between the cultural and social realms, and the building of new relationships between the political, cultural and public spheres. It covers a broad spectrum of practices ranging from audience development activities to participatory and community arts. Its ultimate goal is to make every person, visitor and spectator a true cultural player." https://www.culturepourtous.ca/en/cultural-professionals/cul...
Eliza Hall Feb 3, 2019:
Interactive (mediating between X and Y) I don't think this means "media-based" (that's "médiatique"; "médiatrice" means actually mediating between A and B). This is about mediation, but not in the sense of legal or similar mediation.

A lot of modern art and design, as well as some architectural and urban planning approaches, focus on creating opportunities for interaction between the artist/architect/etc. and the people concerned.

The people concerned may be, for an art installation, museum visitors or (if the installation is outdoors in public) passers by; for an architect, the people living near the proposed future building; for an urban design project, the people living in the affected neighborhood(s).

In the arts, design, architecture etc., interactivity that enables some form of communication or connection between the artist/designer/architect/etc. and the people who see or would be affected by the project is a big deal. For artists, the "pratique médiatrice" may be built into the artwork itself. For architects and urban planners, and industrial designers, it may be part of the design process.

Emily, you know the context that this sentence comes from -- do you think what I'm saying is close to the mark?
David Vaughn Feb 3, 2019:
"Elles modifient les paradigmes de la production. Elles ne fournissent plus le marché des biens mais nourrissent la réflexion pour des modes de conceptions à venir. "

This tilts me still further towards "mediation" as the story here.
Ph_B (X) Feb 3, 2019:
médiation, médiateur, etc. Agree it isn't necessarily a typo. The original text is here https://www.if.institutfrancais.com/fr/triennale-de-design-d... It's more about mediation than the media and pratiques médiatrices is not unheard of in the field of médiation culturelle. Also, it comes from a top French cultural institution and has been prefaced by two French secretaries of state (Foreign Affairs and Culture). One would think their staff would check and double-check texts they're about to sign. I would definitely check with the client here.
David Vaughn Feb 3, 2019:
mediation Mediation is a very big deal in lots of art contexts today. I think you need to get back to the author to make sure. The presence of anthropologique in the list makes it clear this is not just a simple homogeneous list.
cecile calon Feb 3, 2019:
I also think that it refers to mediation more than media.
(médiatrices = à des fins de médiation)
https://www.artec-formation.fr/metiers/mediateur-trice-artis...

this link explains that "artistic mediation means using artistic potential with a humanist /assistance / counselling objective"
I think i would use mediatory?
Charles Davis Feb 2, 2019:
@Helen It would make more sense, I must admit.
Helen Shiner Feb 2, 2019:
@Charles Within the context here, I would be willing to bet that this is a typo.
Charles Davis Feb 2, 2019:
@ Helen But media-based is médiatique, not médiateur/-trice, and your reference refers to "pratiques médiatiques" and "culture médiatique".

In principle, pratiques médiatrices are mediatory practices. I don't know what they might mean by it here. Perhaps it's referring to the very important field of cultural mediation.
Helen Shiner Feb 2, 2019:
@ Ben In this (visual arts) context, it simply refers to media-based practices: https://hermes.hypotheses.org/1206
Ben Gaia Feb 2, 2019:
mediating This word refers more to mediation than media, so you need a word that decribes artistic "practices" (the original noun) which have a "mediating" effect. "Reconciliatory"? "Diplomatic?"

Proposed translations

11 mins
Selected

media-based [practice]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FsDXCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&lp...

But beyond questions of economic necessity, the collaborative nature of academic institutions and the space of the classroom itself has a relationship to discursive and media-based practice. To produce in this way is to engage in conversation. Where art had, until the 60s, often been associated with the solitary individual at work in the studio, media-based and conceptual practices like video and performance often depend on collaboration and cooperation in order to come into being.
https://www.artsresearchcooperative.com/about/

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Note added at 31 mins (2019-02-02 18:46:24 GMT)
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I should have made it clear that I think, given the context, that there is a typo in the French. It might be worth checking with the client. Otherwise, it would stick out rather like a sore thumb in the sentence.

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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2019-02-03 19:57:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Cultural mediation is a role associated with museums and similar institutions. Theoretically speaking, all public art, architecture and such like plays a mediating role in the public realm. It is essential to its nature. Therefore, it would be a totally redundant thing to insert into this sentence. It is for this reason above all else that I don't think this can be correct as a translation. Of course, all of this depends on the author having written something that is actually cogent, which is not always the case ;-)

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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2019-02-04 15:53:04 GMT) Post-grading
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Thank you, Emily :-)
Peer comment(s):
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA
0 min
Thanks, Barbara
neutral Charles Davis : As I've pointed out above, this, in principle, translates "pratiques médiatiques". It might be a typo, I suppose...
12 mins
Yes, I'm guessing a typo, too.
agree philgoddard : I don't think it's a typo - it gets some Google hits, and I think this has to be the meaning.
20 hrs
Thanks, Phil.
disagree Eliza Hall : Media-based = médiatique. If that's what the writer meant, why not choose the correct word? See my discussion post if you care :)
1 day 0 min
Eliza, I and several others here believe that it may be a typo or a misused term. However, to put your argument back to you, why if it is meant to mean interactive art would the author not use the correct French for that? Why not post an answer yourself?
disagree David Vaughn : Not impossible, but I doubt this is the meaning. There is nothing redundant about evoking cultural mediation, quite the opposite, it is mentioned everywhere in France today. It is not the work that is mediation, anymore than it is filmique.
1 day 4 hrs
You seem confused. I’m certainly NOT arguing that it is.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+2
1 day 19 mins

[of] cultural mediation

"Cultural mediation is the process of building bridges between the cultural and social realms, and the building of new relationships between the political, cultural and public spheres. It covers a broad spectrum of practices ranging from audience development activities to participatory and community arts. Its ultimate goal is to make every person, visitor and spectator a true cultural player."
https://www.culturepourtous.ca/en/cultural-professionals/cul...

I think that's what this is about. How you want to rework the sentence in converting it from French to English is up to you -- those long chains of adjectives you sometimes get in French sentences are a pain; you can't do that in English without sounding vague and precious and ineffable, and sometimes you can't do it at all because the French adjective doesn't have an adjectival form in English.

But something like this could work:

"...develop other practices, which can be textual, experimental, anthropological, cinematic, or may use computers or cultural mediation, and may be done on site or in the laboratory."



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Note added at 1 day 20 mins (2019-02-03 18:35:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS: See my discussion post for why I think this is about cultural mediation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 mins (2019-02-03 18:36:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PPS To Helen Shiner: if this text were just about art then yes, they could've said interactive art, but it's broader than that. It includes architecture and urban planning. "Interactive architecture" is not a thing (wow that would be interesting though! Haha.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Helen Shiner : I disagree. One could argue that all art or architecture plays a role in the public realm in terms of cultural mediation, unless it has no public interface at all, i.e. is made solely for the maker's own purpose. This is a museological term. Just wrong.
7 mins
Cultural mediation practices fits perfectly as a concept. It doesn't fit linguistically because it's >1 word and not an adjective, but that's often a problem encountered when translating the long chains of adjectives so beloved of French writers.
agree Ben Gaia
35 mins
agree David Vaughn : This seems like the most likely meaning here, the field and concept of the artist and/or institution interacting directly with the public/consumer.
4 hrs
Exactly. Thanks.
agree Ph_B (X) : See discussion [+ just for info, why "cultural"?]/Quite, and I too used it in FR in the discussion. Just seemed to me that here, it's adding sthg to the source text.
14 hrs
Thanks (and I agree this isn't a clumsy sentence; as you said, it's very natural in this type of French writing). Why cultural? Because that's what we say in English -- "cultural mediation" is the term. It includes but is broader than art.
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